Well I suffered a CCT sudden failure
09-18-2008 | 02:22 PM
#31
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
Your analogy makes no sense. The bike should have been engineered properly from the factory. In the two years I've had this bike I've had the R/R failure and now the CCT. As an engineer myself it does not make sense to have any devotion to a machine that requires fixing from the factory. Aside from that I haven't decided what to do with the bike.
You've had the bike two years... It's a 98, ie it's 10 years... an R/R that lasts 9-10 years isn't really that defective... It's a part that is put trough a lot of heat cycles and takes a lot of ageing in daily use... Had it died in 2-3 years of life it would have been defective... by it's tenth birhtday it's what I consider maintanance...
Also CCT's should be serviced at regular intervals like anything else in the engine... There is actually a recommendation from Honda to have them replaced at a specified intervall... I can't remember the number, but it is a "disposable" part, like all other parts in the engine with wear limits dictating when to replace... If your bike is low mile, it's a possible "defect", otherwise it's like about 99% of all other high mileage CCT failures reported... Failure wasn't in the part, but in maintanance...
It was rather a lot of people talking about the CCT's being defective and prone to fail... and several people reporting theirs having failed... but most of those where high mileage bikes... a few wasn't but they where and are a minority...
APE CCT's aren't any different... they will wear out sooner or later, but the difference is that in the stock ones it's the spring wearing out, in the APE you set the bolt, and re-set it during regular maintanance... and several years on, you might need to replace it as the chain guides wears out...
My solution is to swap the stock ones at a reasonable interval, like Honda recommends... I'll let you know how that works out... It'll take me a while though...
Last edited by Tweety; 09-18-2008 at 02:34 PM.
09-18-2008 | 02:34 PM
#32
I could ride in
SuperBike
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,729
From: Dayton, TN
Are you SURE you heard no unexpected noises?
Wow, rough crowd. Actually i impulse bought the bike. I had read that many people had had no problems with the CCT. In light of that and never having heard any unexpected noises from the bike I did not worry about it. I didn't expect the thing to go from fine to broken in a split second.
Okay continue to post how I should have known better...
Okay continue to post how I should have known better...
__________________
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ad.php?t=14262
Once again, not trying to rag ya' but...
How many miles ya' got on her?
09-18-2008 | 02:54 PM
#33
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,804
From: Atlanta, GA
APE CCT's aren't any different... they will wear out sooner or later, but the difference is that in the stock ones it's the spring wearing out, in the APE you set the bolt, and re-set it during regular maintanance... and several years on, you might need to replace it as the chain guides wears out...
I can't see any way the manually adjustable tensioners would wear out. In use they have no moving parts and the pressure against them just isn't that high. I have used them on previous bikes, one of which I owned for ten years with an APE tensioner on it, and never even thought about replacing it. I suppose anything is possible, but it's really unlikely that a manual tensioner, adjusted properly, would "wear out" over the lifetime of an engine.
09-18-2008 | 03:22 PM
#34
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 442
From: Hampton GA
Again , I would like to know how many miles were on Kendricks bike when it failed ????????? I have 13k on mine and just trying to guage when I need to change mine to APE's . ( The sooner the better I guess)
09-18-2008 | 03:58 PM
#35
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
Tweety,
I can't see any way the manually adjustable tensioners would wear out. In use they have no moving parts and the pressure against them just isn't that high. I have used them on previous bikes, one of which I owned for ten years with an APE tensioner on it, and never even thought about replacing it. I suppose anything is possible, but it's really unlikely that a manual tensioner, adjusted properly, would "wear out" over the lifetime of an engine.
I can't see any way the manually adjustable tensioners would wear out. In use they have no moving parts and the pressure against them just isn't that high. I have used them on previous bikes, one of which I owned for ten years with an APE tensioner on it, and never even thought about replacing it. I suppose anything is possible, but it's really unlikely that a manual tensioner, adjusted properly, would "wear out" over the lifetime of an engine.
BTW... The main point of my rant was that I'm personaly more likely to attribute a failure to high miles and lack of maintainance if a CCT fails than to faulty engineering... Seeing as rather few low miles one's have been reported... Not saying this was the case with Kendrick though...
Last edited by Tweety; 09-18-2008 at 04:07 PM.
09-18-2008 | 04:02 PM
#36
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
I changed mine at around 28k miles to stock replacements... not because I really needed to... Mostly because of paranoia... And I'll probably succumb to that again when next 30k ish miles rolls around...
09-18-2008 | 04:52 PM
#37
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,804
From: Atlanta, GA
I wasn't saying it was likely to wear out... The stock WILL wear out... The APE most likely won't as long as you keep it adjusted as you said... But if not adjusted as part of maintainance it's as likely to fail as anything else...
BTW... The main point of my rant was that I'm personaly more likely to attribute a failure to high miles and lack of maintainance if a CCT fails than to faulty engineering... Seeing as rather few low miles one's have been reported... Not saying this was the case with Kendrick though...
BTW... The main point of my rant was that I'm personaly more likely to attribute a failure to high miles and lack of maintainance if a CCT fails than to faulty engineering... Seeing as rather few low miles one's have been reported... Not saying this was the case with Kendrick though...
An R/R failure after 10 years is not faulty engineering.
09-18-2008 | 08:53 PM
#38
Thread Starter
The Hypno-Toad
Superstock
Superstock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 467
From: Milwaukee, WI
"One thing however, are these bikes noisey as all hell or what? I don't know if I developed an exhaust leak or something or if I have simply forgotten how noisey and obnoxious the superhawk engine is. I do have the Jardine round pipes, but even I was disturbed by the amount of noise the thing makes. It sounds kind of like an old ratty race bike. I guess it had to have been just as loud last year and I just forgot."
__________________
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ad.php?t=14262
Once again, not trying to rag ya' but...
How many miles ya' got on her?
__________________
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ad.php?t=14262
Once again, not trying to rag ya' but...
How many miles ya' got on her?
09-19-2008 | 01:31 AM
#39
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,052
From: NYC
Hey inderocker ( and anyone who is sure)Can you elaborate on the a.p.e. ccts and should I pre-emptively go for these to prevent great unhapiness later? Is cct failure a foregone conclusion for us or should I motor hapily into the future without worry.I DO NOT want to learn this the hard way. Whats the deal??
09-19-2008 | 02:44 AM
#40
Senior Member
SuperSport
SuperSport
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 880
From: Victoriaville, Quebec, Canada
I agree that the design of the tensioner is flawed, take the kawi tensioners, they are far superior to Honda's design, they can't back up, it's impossible, it's a spring loaded ratcheting device that need to be taken off and reset every time you take the tension off.
May be the only thing of proper design on Kawis tough
These parts are a stain on Honda's legendary reliability, when a Honda motor goes boom for whatever reason, the company loose points, engineers need to think ahead of that.
Still, the machine work and quality level is above the other big three and even KTM.
Sorry that happened to you, it could happen to me since I still run the stockers, but on a 04 they are upgraded...I think !?
May be the only thing of proper design on Kawis tough
These parts are a stain on Honda's legendary reliability, when a Honda motor goes boom for whatever reason, the company loose points, engineers need to think ahead of that.
Still, the machine work and quality level is above the other big three and even KTM.
Sorry that happened to you, it could happen to me since I still run the stockers, but on a 04 they are upgraded...I think !?
Last edited by gboezio; 09-19-2008 at 02:50 AM.
09-19-2008 | 04:07 AM
#41
I could ride in
SuperBike
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,729
From: Dayton, TN
No good deed goes unpunished! Really, it's just more reason for me to get up off my *** and not become a statistic.
OK, so maybe we need to say more like 10 or 15K it oughta be done...
If I were you, I'd buy a known good motor and tinker with the hurt one...
And if I were in WI, I'd help ya' ...
09-19-2008 | 04:19 AM
#42
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
OK... to set the record straight on that one... They are probably NOT upgraded in any way... (probably added because I didn't disect the new one's)...
Why I'm saying this is I myself have swapped mine, and out of curiosity compared the old (from a bike first taken in use 4'th april 97) and the new sparepart from Honda... As I was curious to why they had changed the partno# and such at 2001 with all the other updates I ordered them aswell, with the promise to be able to return them... (know's the guys at the local Honda certified shop)...
What I got was 4 identical items, with the "new" partno# printed in bold and with the old in smaller print on the bag...
I then examined the CCT i took out of my engine, and compared them to the new I was putting in... again I could find no difference, apart from wear...
And at 46575 km or 28940 miles and 9 years of age, they looked almost like brand new... no significant wear to them... And I haven't been babying my bike...
What could be upgraded is the material or internal dimensions of the spring, to prevent failure, but from what I could see no changes where visible...
I have later helped a less mechanicly inclined friend swap the CCT's on his 02 (which is after when the partno# changed) bike and comparing my old ones, his old and the new... again, no difference that we could find... actually his CCT's was showing more wear than mine... at lower miles and less years...
Smokinjoe73: APE CCT's are basily the same as the stock one's but instead of a self tightening spring, there is a bolt that you thread in to set the tension on the chain, this needs to be adjusted with the wear on the chain and such, so basicly on the same interwalls that you check all other tolerances in the engine (valve clearance and such) you should re-set them... No big deal, takes less than 30 seconds...
A foregone conclusion... Well the stock CCT's will fail at some point... So it's a smart move to replace them with either stock spare parts or APE's... the service manual states valve clerance's to be checked at every 16k miles, and the bulletin I saw from Honda (found the note i made...) states to check the CCT's at those intervals, basicly if the chain isn't properly tensioned, swap CCT's... it also states to replace CCT's at x2 that ie 32k miles... Which is why I did mine at close to that...
This is a service bulletin issued in 98-99 to all certified Honda workshops by Honda Sweden, along with a whole bunch of others... I have no copy of it but I could possibly get one from the same shop that let me see it if neccesary... I'm not defending Honda... the design could most defenitly be better to begin with... But with proper care this shouldn't be a problem...
Why I'm saying this is I myself have swapped mine, and out of curiosity compared the old (from a bike first taken in use 4'th april 97) and the new sparepart from Honda... As I was curious to why they had changed the partno# and such at 2001 with all the other updates I ordered them aswell, with the promise to be able to return them... (know's the guys at the local Honda certified shop)...
What I got was 4 identical items, with the "new" partno# printed in bold and with the old in smaller print on the bag...
I then examined the CCT i took out of my engine, and compared them to the new I was putting in... again I could find no difference, apart from wear...
And at 46575 km or 28940 miles and 9 years of age, they looked almost like brand new... no significant wear to them... And I haven't been babying my bike...
What could be upgraded is the material or internal dimensions of the spring, to prevent failure, but from what I could see no changes where visible...
I have later helped a less mechanicly inclined friend swap the CCT's on his 02 (which is after when the partno# changed) bike and comparing my old ones, his old and the new... again, no difference that we could find... actually his CCT's was showing more wear than mine... at lower miles and less years...
Smokinjoe73: APE CCT's are basily the same as the stock one's but instead of a self tightening spring, there is a bolt that you thread in to set the tension on the chain, this needs to be adjusted with the wear on the chain and such, so basicly on the same interwalls that you check all other tolerances in the engine (valve clearance and such) you should re-set them... No big deal, takes less than 30 seconds...
A foregone conclusion... Well the stock CCT's will fail at some point... So it's a smart move to replace them with either stock spare parts or APE's... the service manual states valve clerance's to be checked at every 16k miles, and the bulletin I saw from Honda (found the note i made...) states to check the CCT's at those intervals, basicly if the chain isn't properly tensioned, swap CCT's... it also states to replace CCT's at x2 that ie 32k miles... Which is why I did mine at close to that...
This is a service bulletin issued in 98-99 to all certified Honda workshops by Honda Sweden, along with a whole bunch of others... I have no copy of it but I could possibly get one from the same shop that let me see it if neccesary... I'm not defending Honda... the design could most defenitly be better to begin with... But with proper care this shouldn't be a problem...
Last edited by Tweety; 09-19-2008 at 04:22 AM.
09-19-2008 | 06:33 AM
#44
Member
Squid
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 36
From: Plymouth UK
I'm looking at fitting APE CCTs at the end of this month (payday) and was wondering if anybody is aware of a UK supplier. I've found places selling them for other bikes (mostly racing and drag specialists) but none listing the VTR. The models they do list seem to retail at £49, so not far short of $100 each. Seems a bit steep when originals are only £25.
09-19-2008 | 09:47 AM
#45
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,707
From: Essex, UK
"Do you feel lucky punk?"
Sums up VTR CCTS...
My front cylinder CCT went a couple of years back with 35,000 (odd the rear one never seems to go) on my 97 storm. Thankfully I was doing 30mph when it suddenly started clattering and for once I'd put the original cans rather than race cans on so I heard it early. Despite immediately pulling in the clutch the workshop found the front cylinder valves had been wrecked, so I had to get a second-hand head. Took them 2 months to do but thankfully I had the use of a loan bike in the meantime.
Check the UK Firestorm site for availability of APE CCTs, I got OEM CCTS but before I'll bung on APE ones before 50 thou.
http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB2/index.php
PS Off topic - Hi all Superhawkers - my 1st post! - here's sharing the latest pic of my beast just after a rear suspension stripdown and refurbishment.. bleedin' British salty roads.
09-19-2008 | 12:00 PM
#46
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,572
From: Buffalo, NY
Welcome aboard Wicky!
"Do you feel lucky punk?"
Sums up VTR CCTS...
My front cylinder CCT went a couple of years back with 35,000 (odd the rear one never seems to go) on my 97 storm. Thankfully I was doing 30mph when it suddenly started clattering and for once I'd put the original cans rather than race cans on so I heard it early. Despite immediately pulling in the clutch the workshop found the front cylinder valves had been wrecked, so I had to get a second-hand head. Took them 2 months to do but thankfully I had the use of a loan bike in the meantime.
Check the UK Firestorm site for availability of APE CCTs, I got OEM CCTS but before I'll bung on APE ones before 50 thou.
http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB2/index.php
PS Off topic - Hi all Superhawkers - my 1st post! - here's sharing the latest pic of my beast just after a rear suspension stripdown and refurbishment.. bleedin' British salty roads.
"Do you feel lucky punk?"
Sums up VTR CCTS...
My front cylinder CCT went a couple of years back with 35,000 (odd the rear one never seems to go) on my 97 storm. Thankfully I was doing 30mph when it suddenly started clattering and for once I'd put the original cans rather than race cans on so I heard it early. Despite immediately pulling in the clutch the workshop found the front cylinder valves had been wrecked, so I had to get a second-hand head. Took them 2 months to do but thankfully I had the use of a loan bike in the meantime.
Check the UK Firestorm site for availability of APE CCTs, I got OEM CCTS but before I'll bung on APE ones before 50 thou.
http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB2/index.php
PS Off topic - Hi all Superhawkers - my 1st post! - here's sharing the latest pic of my beast just after a rear suspension stripdown and refurbishment.. bleedin' British salty roads.
09-19-2008 | 12:11 PM
#47
Thread Starter
The Hypno-Toad
Superstock
Superstock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 467
From: Milwaukee, WI
My front cylinder CCT went a couple of years back with 35,000 (odd the rear one never seems to go) on my 97 storm. Thankfully I was doing 30mph when it suddenly started clattering and for once I'd put the original cans rather than race cans on so I heard it early. Despite immediately pulling in the clutch the workshop found the front cylinder valves had been wrecked, so I had to get a second-hand head. Took them 2 months to do but thankfully I had the use of a loan bike in the meantime.
So a whole new head? Do you have to pull the engine to do that? And for that matter would it be possible to replace the CCT and head and have the timing set and get back on the road?
09-19-2008 | 12:14 PM
#48
my e-penis is huge!!
Superstock
Superstock
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 257
From: belvidere nj
I replaced mine at about 20,000 mls. I would get an occasional Death Rattle once in a great blue moon. I love my bike to much to let her commit suicide, so I put the APE's on. Sinse then, we now have 33,000 on the clock and only tweaked them once, and just a tweak.
PS Welcome Wicky
PS Welcome Wicky
09-19-2008 | 12:17 PM
#49
my e-penis is huge!!
Superstock
Superstock
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 257
From: belvidere nj
I suspect that is what I have to look forward to, and that's kind of what thought when I heard to chain go. It wouldn't have matter when I pulled in the clutch, the end result was going to be the same. As long as the engine kept spinning everything held together, but as soon as it lost momentum everything was going to go to hell.
So a whole new head? Do you have to pull the engine to do that? And for that matter would it be possible to replace the CCT and head and have the timing set and get back on the road?
So a whole new head? Do you have to pull the engine to do that? And for that matter would it be possible to replace the CCT and head and have the timing set and get back on the road?
09-19-2008 | 12:58 PM
#50
Thread Starter
The Hypno-Toad
Superstock
Superstock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 467
From: Milwaukee, WI
I guess what I was thinking was more of what indierocker said. I'll pull the head off, which from what I'm gathering is most likely the front, give it to the shop to repair, and then I'll reinstall it with new CCTs and let the shop set the timing. Maybe I can save a few bucks, and save myself a few headaches.
09-19-2008 | 01:07 PM
#51
Senior Member
Back Marker
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 223
From: Las Vegas, NV
Hey Kendrick,
Sorry this happened to you and I might be right behind you if I do not change mine here in the near future. I have 24,000+ on my 98 and have not had any probs yet. I am the orig. owner so I do know what type of maint. has been done on the bike and when.
Good Luck
Dennis
Sorry this happened to you and I might be right behind you if I do not change mine here in the near future. I have 24,000+ on my 98 and have not had any probs yet. I am the orig. owner so I do know what type of maint. has been done on the bike and when.
Good Luck
Dennis
09-19-2008 | 01:51 PM
#52
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,132
From: Phoenix, AZ
09-19-2008 | 02:53 PM
#53
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,052
From: NYC
Hey tweety, thanks for the answer, finally someone on this forum who doesnt respond with "do a search". I guess the next important question is where do I track down these APE ccts??
Someone must have a US link to them? No way do I want a failure; I am at about 17k so I hope to not be first on the ER line but I dont want to live dangerously.
Someone must have a US link to them? No way do I want a failure; I am at about 17k so I hope to not be first on the ER line but I dont want to live dangerously.
09-19-2008 | 03:33 PM
#54
Thread Starter
The Hypno-Toad
Superstock
Superstock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 467
From: Milwaukee, WI
I couldn't tell you. They claim to make them but don't tell you how to get them.
http://www.sudco.com/apeCamchain.html
Anyone?
http://www.sudco.com/apeCamchain.html
Anyone?
09-19-2008 | 03:46 PM
#55
Thread Starter
The Hypno-Toad
Superstock
Superstock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 467
From: Milwaukee, WI
Okay I answered my own question, google HT1000VTR (the part#) and you'll find some at widely varying prices. like $48-$78.
edit...
http://secure.mycart.net/catalogs/ca...showprevnext=1
edit...
http://secure.mycart.net/catalogs/ca...showprevnext=1
09-19-2008 | 04:44 PM
#56
Moderator
MotoGP
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,708
Here's a decent deal for some on eBay... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...3962%26fvi%3D1
09-19-2008 | 06:30 PM
#57
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,451
From: San Clemente, CA
Seriously, has anyone done a poll on CCT failure. We have over 3000 members. How many have had CCT failure. I've got 22,600 on my '05, but I always figured that changing oil between 2k and 3k miles would lengthen the life of components like the CCTs.
We had my wife's '86 Toyota 4x4 engine rebuilt 6 years ago when the timing chain started clacking. I didn't even trust driving it to the dealer and had it towed. That was at 337,000 miles, with oil changes every 3k since it was bought. The chain and guides were shot, but over 300k isn't bad.
Last edited by VTRsurfer; 09-19-2008 at 06:43 PM. Reason: add to post
09-19-2008 | 06:32 PM
#58
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 818
From: Thornwood, NY
Just to throw my 2 cents in...
The engineers did screw this one up... it shouldn't have been to hard to put a detail in the assembly of that part that would avoid it backing out and popping the motor when they go. Regardless if it's a consumable part or not... the CCT's really doesn't "wear out" they "blow out" it's not like any other maintance part that you can visually inspect, or it gives you notice it's well past due by making noise, or causing another issue that makes you figure out the problem before your engine pops. They botched this one.
With that being said... I replaced my at 17K out of fear, the second Hawk I am working on right now has 44k on the stock CCT's... needles to say before it hits the road, I'll swap them out as well...
In general you should be able to find them for about $45 a piece, plus 2-3 dollars for the gasket... EBAY is probably the easiest place to find them, although I'm sure if you just do a google search you'll probably find a few dealers that sell them as well.
The engineers did screw this one up... it shouldn't have been to hard to put a detail in the assembly of that part that would avoid it backing out and popping the motor when they go. Regardless if it's a consumable part or not... the CCT's really doesn't "wear out" they "blow out" it's not like any other maintance part that you can visually inspect, or it gives you notice it's well past due by making noise, or causing another issue that makes you figure out the problem before your engine pops. They botched this one.
With that being said... I replaced my at 17K out of fear, the second Hawk I am working on right now has 44k on the stock CCT's... needles to say before it hits the road, I'll swap them out as well...
In general you should be able to find them for about $45 a piece, plus 2-3 dollars for the gasket... EBAY is probably the easiest place to find them, although I'm sure if you just do a google search you'll probably find a few dealers that sell them as well.
09-19-2008 | 06:54 PM
#59
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,451
From: San Clemente, CA
For those bitching about Honda's engineering, try riding a Ducati. A riding and surfing buddy of mine had an '86 F1. Riding at 80 mph he heard a noise and quickly pulled in the clutch. He now has on his bookcase a piston with a valve imbedded in it's head as a souvenir.
09-19-2008 | 07:06 PM
#60
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 818
From: Thornwood, NY
For those bitching about Honda's engineering, try riding a Ducati. A riding and surfing buddy of mine had an '86 F1. Riding at 80 mph he heard a noise and quickly pulled in the clutch. He now has on his bookcase a piston with a valve imbedded in it's head as a souvenir.
I can live with R/R's frying, 100 bucks and it take 5 mintues to replace and your back on the road, no biggie... but the CCT's cause much worse damage, and are much more dangerous if it causes the motor to lockup at speed.
I've owned (6) Hondas becuase they are uber-reliable and WELL engineered... this is the only issue I've come across that has made me worry on any of my bikes.
J.
