Starting Issue - Neutral Switch Mystery
09-04-2014 | 10:00 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,167
Starting Issue - Neutral Switch Mystery
Recently my 98 with 90k+ miles has developed an intermittent starting problem. Hitting the starter switch results in the lights dimming but the starting does not engage; i.e., no "click" per the starting troubleshooting procedures (Manual Section 19). In my fuzzy state I should have realized when in neutral the side stand switch will (should??) not prevent starting, nor does the clutch lever need to be pulled back. Am I correct that the the clutch lever switch should not be a factor (even though the trouble shooting procedures says to test it)?
As I've had issues before with the side stand switch, I replaced it without first testing it until after I removed it; it tested OK (so now I have a spare).
I then tested the neutral switch, at first it tested OK (19-22) but then after testing it several times it did not check out; i.e., no continuity in neutral. However, when the lead from the switch is connected with the ignition on, the neutral light illuminates when in neutral and goes off when in gear!?
I have yet to test the starter relay or diode but given it is an intermittent problem...
When cold it usually with not start unless retract the side stand and keep it in neutral. As I reflexively pull in the clutch, I do not know if clutch switch factors in but I'll try tomorrow without pulling in the clutch.
When hot it usually starts immediately in neutral, side stand down and without pulling the clutch lever (I think, as I said, I may be retracting the clutch lever without realizing it but I test that out too when warm).
Any suggestion and/or opinions from the peanut gallery?
As I've had issues before with the side stand switch, I replaced it without first testing it until after I removed it; it tested OK (so now I have a spare).
I then tested the neutral switch, at first it tested OK (19-22) but then after testing it several times it did not check out; i.e., no continuity in neutral. However, when the lead from the switch is connected with the ignition on, the neutral light illuminates when in neutral and goes off when in gear!?
I have yet to test the starter relay or diode but given it is an intermittent problem...
When cold it usually with not start unless retract the side stand and keep it in neutral. As I reflexively pull in the clutch, I do not know if clutch switch factors in but I'll try tomorrow without pulling in the clutch.
When hot it usually starts immediately in neutral, side stand down and without pulling the clutch lever (I think, as I said, I may be retracting the clutch lever without realizing it but I test that out too when warm).
Any suggestion and/or opinions from the peanut gallery?
09-05-2014 | 02:19 AM
#2
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 932
From: Auckland, new Zealand
Ive had this before. I believe its a standard Honda fault of the time. Pull your starter switch apart and clean it.
My 900 Hornet did it. It would also turn off the headlight at random times when it needed doing. Not much fun on a dark night.
My 900 Hornet did it. It would also turn off the headlight at random times when it needed doing. Not much fun on a dark night.
09-05-2014 | 03:28 AM
#3
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,707
From: Essex, UK
The neutral switch is only about a £5 and is a common part from other Hondas of that period - 2 minutes to replace. Also check under the rubber hood on the starter motor where the terminal bolts on as this can corrode giving rise to intermittent starting issues.
09-05-2014 | 08:48 AM
#4
Thread Starter
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,167
It is an intermittent problem which seems temperature related, which is why I'm now leaning toward the starter relay...
Good point to check the starter motor terminal (though I had the boot filled with dielectric grease and lap-taped it where in extends onto the insulated cable (albeit years ago).
09-05-2014 | 08:56 AM
#6
Thread Starter
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,167
09-05-2014 | 03:33 PM
#8
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 427
From: Honolulu, Hawaii USA
Not sure if this answer applies in this particular case.
Recently the bike would not start while in gear with the clutch lever pulled in.
I removed the lever mounted switch and cleaned the contact points and the terminals…still no luck. I then remembered that I had recently changed the levers from stock to Chinese-made Pazzo knock-offs. The flat area of the new clutch lever that normally depresses the actuation pin on the switch was not doing the job. I dissassembled the lever and attached a small rectangular piece of Dymo lable tape (remember the stuff?) to the flat area in question, using a couple drops of super glue to augment the adhesive already on the tape, and now it works perfectly.
Hope this helps.
Recently the bike would not start while in gear with the clutch lever pulled in.
I removed the lever mounted switch and cleaned the contact points and the terminals…still no luck. I then remembered that I had recently changed the levers from stock to Chinese-made Pazzo knock-offs. The flat area of the new clutch lever that normally depresses the actuation pin on the switch was not doing the job. I dissassembled the lever and attached a small rectangular piece of Dymo lable tape (remember the stuff?) to the flat area in question, using a couple drops of super glue to augment the adhesive already on the tape, and now it works perfectly.
Hope this helps.
09-05-2014 | 04:02 PM
#9
Thread Starter
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,167
I'm still going to check the relay and still am befuddled by the neutral switch not testing out (no continuity in neutral) but still activating the neutral light.
However, I too recently installed new levers (presumably also Chinese manufactured but seeming good quality - see my review at: https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...-levers-31588/ ; although the brake light seems to work OK. I suspected the clutch lever switch too but have not tested it yet but now your suggestion REALLY turned on a LED light bulb in my head!
I had to look up what Dymo label tape was and while I did not know it by that name I actually have the "Rotex" equivalent that is "peel n' stick"; so I'll try that (in red rather than black so it's easier to see if it falls off) tonight and I'll test the lever switch while I'm at it! The Rotex tape sticks very well so I won't need to use "Superglue"; which while often effective, it is an inelegant quick and dirty solution to applications that another adhesive / cohesive is better suited for.
I'll let you know! Thanks!
However, I too recently installed new levers (presumably also Chinese manufactured but seeming good quality - see my review at: https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...-levers-31588/ ; although the brake light seems to work OK. I suspected the clutch lever switch too but have not tested it yet but now your suggestion REALLY turned on a LED light bulb in my head!
I had to look up what Dymo label tape was and while I did not know it by that name I actually have the "Rotex" equivalent that is "peel n' stick"; so I'll try that (in red rather than black so it's easier to see if it falls off) tonight and I'll test the lever switch while I'm at it! The Rotex tape sticks very well so I won't need to use "Superglue"; which while often effective, it is an inelegant quick and dirty solution to applications that another adhesive / cohesive is better suited for.
I'll let you know! Thanks!
Not sure if this answer applies in this particular case.
Recently the bike would not start while in gear with the clutch lever pulled in.
I removed the lever mounted switch and cleaned the contact points and the terminals…still no luck. I then remembered that I had recently changed the levers from stock to Chinese-made Pazzo knock-offs. The flat area of the new clutch lever that normally depresses the actuation pin on the switch was not doing the job. I dissassembled the lever and attached a small rectangular piece of Dymo lable tape (remember the stuff?) to the flat area in question, using a couple drops of super glue to augment the adhesive already on the tape, and now it works perfectly.
Hope this helps.
Recently the bike would not start while in gear with the clutch lever pulled in.
I removed the lever mounted switch and cleaned the contact points and the terminals…still no luck. I then remembered that I had recently changed the levers from stock to Chinese-made Pazzo knock-offs. The flat area of the new clutch lever that normally depresses the actuation pin on the switch was not doing the job. I dissassembled the lever and attached a small rectangular piece of Dymo lable tape (remember the stuff?) to the flat area in question, using a couple drops of super glue to augment the adhesive already on the tape, and now it works perfectly.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by skokievtr; 09-05-2014 at 04:09 PM.
09-06-2014 | 11:26 AM
#10
Thread Starter
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,167
Well, I think I've narrowed it down to the neutral switch because it "tests" bad (no continuity in neutral) even though the green neutral light functions properly. I ordered a new switch and sealing washer (which can often just be flipped around and be reused) but it won't be in until next Wednesday, so a fix determination cannot be made until at least then.
I also added the shim tape to the clutch lever, and while it functioned OK before, the clutch switch is activated sooner so the lever does not need to be pulled back as far to "trip" the switch. I also replaced the rubber sleeve boot that seals around the actuator rod that pushes the master cylinder piston which had swollen and torn due to a reaction with lubricants I had used on the lever pivot over the years. So I caution everyone to be careful with this rubber boot.
I also checked the starter motor power connection and OMG! I recall packing grease under the rubber boot years ago but apparently I should have made this procedure a regular maintenance item, and I strongly recommend all VTR owners do the same. It was difficult just prying up and sliding the rubber boot off the connection and up the cable. Corrosion (rust) had built up significantly on the 2 nuts and the exposed en of the brush stud. I first wire brushed the exposed components with a fine stainless steel brush (access was hindered at first until I removed the chin fairing, and still was by my custom engine guard 3rd mount point cross-over tube which blocks straight-on access to the starter motor). I then judiciously applied PB Blaster and gently and rapidly tapped on the nuts with a hammer and punch to help break the grip the rust had on the threads. The outer nut that retains the copper cable lug-eye was so badly corroded I was concerned whether or not I'd be able to get a strong purchase on it with my 10mm MetWrench box-end wrench which bear on the flats of a hex bot/nut rather than the "corners"; and thought I may need to resort to my Craftsman blade-sockets but did not. In order to keep the brush-stud and nut behind the lug from rotating when I loosened the outer nut, I had to use my Craftsman 10mm open end ignition wrench (which I'd already ground thinner) to fit onto the inner nut. The nuts used here are special 6mm flange nuts which have a low-profile hex height and the flange portion is "cupped" to act as a spring "lock washer". I was able to get both nuts off (I held the stud from rotating while turning the inner nut with a large hemostat). Ialso found the plated steel washer behind the 2nd nut had corroded a bit and the o-ring that seals around the brush stud at the starter motor body hole behind the 3 fiber insulation washers had also deteriorated. I cleaned everything and packed dielectric grease through the hole in the body, greased and reset the o-ring, cleaned and greased the 3 fiber washers, metal flat washer and inner flange nut and tightened it. Cleaned and greased the lug-eye and greased it, replaced the outer nut (temporarily) with a standard 6 mm flange nut and tightened it, packed the rubber boot with more grease and reset it.
Then I cleaned up the area and my hands, lowered the lift table, checked I was in neutral and retracted the side stand (because the engine will only start in this position due to the presumed defective neutral switch), and hit the starter button while holding my breath because I was worried I had damaged or rotated the brush stud out of engagement with the brushes.
Well it cranked fine and I exhaled. Today I ordered 8 of the nuts, 3 of the o-rings and 1 rubber boot. I'll give a set of the nuts and O-ring to a couple of buddies who have VTRs. But you have now been warned, especially those who ride a lot in the rain...
I also added the shim tape to the clutch lever, and while it functioned OK before, the clutch switch is activated sooner so the lever does not need to be pulled back as far to "trip" the switch. I also replaced the rubber sleeve boot that seals around the actuator rod that pushes the master cylinder piston which had swollen and torn due to a reaction with lubricants I had used on the lever pivot over the years. So I caution everyone to be careful with this rubber boot.
I also checked the starter motor power connection and OMG! I recall packing grease under the rubber boot years ago but apparently I should have made this procedure a regular maintenance item, and I strongly recommend all VTR owners do the same. It was difficult just prying up and sliding the rubber boot off the connection and up the cable. Corrosion (rust) had built up significantly on the 2 nuts and the exposed en of the brush stud. I first wire brushed the exposed components with a fine stainless steel brush (access was hindered at first until I removed the chin fairing, and still was by my custom engine guard 3rd mount point cross-over tube which blocks straight-on access to the starter motor). I then judiciously applied PB Blaster and gently and rapidly tapped on the nuts with a hammer and punch to help break the grip the rust had on the threads. The outer nut that retains the copper cable lug-eye was so badly corroded I was concerned whether or not I'd be able to get a strong purchase on it with my 10mm MetWrench box-end wrench which bear on the flats of a hex bot/nut rather than the "corners"; and thought I may need to resort to my Craftsman blade-sockets but did not. In order to keep the brush-stud and nut behind the lug from rotating when I loosened the outer nut, I had to use my Craftsman 10mm open end ignition wrench (which I'd already ground thinner) to fit onto the inner nut. The nuts used here are special 6mm flange nuts which have a low-profile hex height and the flange portion is "cupped" to act as a spring "lock washer". I was able to get both nuts off (I held the stud from rotating while turning the inner nut with a large hemostat). Ialso found the plated steel washer behind the 2nd nut had corroded a bit and the o-ring that seals around the brush stud at the starter motor body hole behind the 3 fiber insulation washers had also deteriorated. I cleaned everything and packed dielectric grease through the hole in the body, greased and reset the o-ring, cleaned and greased the 3 fiber washers, metal flat washer and inner flange nut and tightened it. Cleaned and greased the lug-eye and greased it, replaced the outer nut (temporarily) with a standard 6 mm flange nut and tightened it, packed the rubber boot with more grease and reset it.
Then I cleaned up the area and my hands, lowered the lift table, checked I was in neutral and retracted the side stand (because the engine will only start in this position due to the presumed defective neutral switch), and hit the starter button while holding my breath because I was worried I had damaged or rotated the brush stud out of engagement with the brushes.
Well it cranked fine and I exhaled. Today I ordered 8 of the nuts, 3 of the o-rings and 1 rubber boot. I'll give a set of the nuts and O-ring to a couple of buddies who have VTRs. But you have now been warned, especially those who ride a lot in the rain...
Last edited by skokievtr; 09-06-2014 at 11:34 AM.
09-06-2014 | 11:59 AM
#11
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,707
From: Essex, UK
Re starter motor bolt. Here in the UK in winter the roads are treated with rock salt so the starter takes the brunt due to where it's mounted low down and upfront. I grease mine up regulary everytime I wash the bike. If water has gotten past the fibre seals then corrosion could be more deeper in the motor than it readily appears.
Handily starter motors from most +600cc Hondas from the late 90s and early naughties fit the Storm - You can find Hornet starters secondhand quite cheaply and in very good condition as they are mounted out of harms way.
Alternatively dissasemble and either source a new replacement stainless bolt or craft one up from a normal SS bolt and fit.
Handily starter motors from most +600cc Hondas from the late 90s and early naughties fit the Storm - You can find Hornet starters secondhand quite cheaply and in very good condition as they are mounted out of harms way.
Alternatively dissasemble and either source a new replacement stainless bolt or craft one up from a normal SS bolt and fit.
Last edited by Wicky; 09-06-2014 at 12:02 PM.
09-06-2014 | 01:59 PM
#12
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
SuperBike
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,312
From: Brookfield, WI
Regarding the starter, it is very easy to take off and clean up. I posted some pictures a while back. Click here (post #12)
There are cheap rebuild kits on eBay as well.
And as long as you're playing with the starter, you can spice up the looks and do something like this.
There are cheap rebuild kits on eBay as well.
And as long as you're playing with the starter, you can spice up the looks and do something like this.
09-06-2014 | 06:44 PM
#13
Thread Starter
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,167
Thanks
I think the starter motor is OK and the clean-up, greasing and new O-ring and nuts along with the belt & suspenders sealing work I will do when I get the parts will do the trick. It starts fine when it starts, which I hope the new neutral switch will resolve. There is not corrosion on the starter motor body, just road grime which I clean off regularly with kerosene and treat with CRC SP400.
BTW, cute starter motor cover but I don't know where I can get a comparable can to fab into a cover because I don't drink, swear, smoke, do drugs, have relations with anyone (and then rarely) with any woman but my wife, or ever lie...
G-d dam it, I forgot my cigarettes at the bar with Juicy Judy and she has my bag of weed...
See above. Hopefully the starter motor won't need a rebuild or replacement for a while because it only has 90,000 miles on it and is just a baby.
However, do you want to know why life is like a *****?
Do you?
OK, because when it's hard you get f-ked and when it's soft you can't beat it.
I think the starter motor is OK and the clean-up, greasing and new O-ring and nuts along with the belt & suspenders sealing work I will do when I get the parts will do the trick. It starts fine when it starts, which I hope the new neutral switch will resolve. There is not corrosion on the starter motor body, just road grime which I clean off regularly with kerosene and treat with CRC SP400.
BTW, cute starter motor cover but I don't know where I can get a comparable can to fab into a cover because I don't drink, swear, smoke, do drugs, have relations with anyone (and then rarely) with any woman but my wife, or ever lie...
G-d dam it, I forgot my cigarettes at the bar with Juicy Judy and she has my bag of weed...
Re starter motor bolt. Here in the UK in winter the roads are treated with rock salt so the starter takes the brunt due to where it's mounted low down and upfront. I grease mine up regulary everytime I wash the bike. If water has gotten past the fibre seals then corrosion could be more deeper in the motor than it readily appears.
Handily starter motors from most +600cc Hondas from the late 90s and early naughties fit the Storm - You can find Hornet starters secondhand quite cheaply and in very good condition as they are mounted out of harms way.
Alternatively dissasemble and either source a new replacement stainless bolt or craft one up from a normal SS bolt and fit.
Handily starter motors from most +600cc Hondas from the late 90s and early naughties fit the Storm - You can find Hornet starters secondhand quite cheaply and in very good condition as they are mounted out of harms way.
Alternatively dissasemble and either source a new replacement stainless bolt or craft one up from a normal SS bolt and fit.
However, do you want to know why life is like a *****?
Do you?
OK, because when it's hard you get f-ked and when it's soft you can't beat it.
Regarding the starter, it is very easy to take off and clean up. I posted some pictures a while back. Click here (post #12)
There are cheap rebuild kits on eBay as well.
And as long as you're playing with the starter, you can spice up the looks and do something like this.
There are cheap rebuild kits on eBay as well.
And as long as you're playing with the starter, you can spice up the looks and do something like this.
Last edited by skokievtr; 09-06-2014 at 06:46 PM.
09-07-2014 | 01:02 AM
#14
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 972
Thanks
I think the starter motor is OK and the clean-up, greasing and new O-ring and nuts along with the belt & suspenders sealing work I will do when I get the parts will do the trick. It starts fine when it starts, which I hope the new neutral switch will resolve. There is not corrosion on the starter motor body, just road grime which I clean off regularly with kerosene and treat with CRC SP400.
BTW, cute starter motor cover but I don't know where I can get a comparable can to fab into a cover because I don't drink, swear, smoke, do drugs, have relations with anyone (and then rarely) with any woman but my wife, or ever lie...
G-d dam it, I forgot my cigarettes at the bar with Juicy Judy and she has my bag of weed...
See above. Hopefully the starter motor won't need a rebuild or replacement for a while because it only has 90,000 miles on it and is just a baby.
However, do you want to know why life is like a *****?
Do you? No not really lol
OK, because when it's hard you get f-ked and when it's soft you can't beat it.
I think the starter motor is OK and the clean-up, greasing and new O-ring and nuts along with the belt & suspenders sealing work I will do when I get the parts will do the trick. It starts fine when it starts, which I hope the new neutral switch will resolve. There is not corrosion on the starter motor body, just road grime which I clean off regularly with kerosene and treat with CRC SP400.
BTW, cute starter motor cover but I don't know where I can get a comparable can to fab into a cover because I don't drink, swear, smoke, do drugs, have relations with anyone (and then rarely) with any woman but my wife, or ever lie...
G-d dam it, I forgot my cigarettes at the bar with Juicy Judy and she has my bag of weed...
See above. Hopefully the starter motor won't need a rebuild or replacement for a while because it only has 90,000 miles on it and is just a baby.
However, do you want to know why life is like a *****?
Do you? No not really lol
OK, because when it's hard you get f-ked and when it's soft you can't beat it.
09-08-2014 | 06:07 PM
#15
Thread Starter
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,167
OK but only one more...
I think you will know who this is first-hand...
I've got a head I can't think with. An eye I can't see with, and most of the time I have to hang around with two nuts. My closest neighbor is an *******, and my best friend is a *****. But worst of all is my owner beats me all the time!
I think you will know who this is first-hand...
I've got a head I can't think with. An eye I can't see with, and most of the time I have to hang around with two nuts. My closest neighbor is an *******, and my best friend is a *****. But worst of all is my owner beats me all the time!
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
inderocker
Classifieds
11
04-26-2010 07:44 PM
