Manual CCT install thread
01-04-2008 | 07:15 PM
#31
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
Ok,
I have worked on this for the last 3 months. Here are recent pix of the job. I am able to get the timing mark on the crank, but the cams are not perfectly lined up. It seems that they are about 2 degrees off. Please let me know what you think, so i can fix it right now and finish this.
This shows it with the cams lined up, but the timing mark on the crank is about 2mm away.
This shows what the cams look like when the cranks timing mark is set. They are not correct. I am seriously confused.
I have worked on this for the last 3 months. Here are recent pix of the job. I am able to get the timing mark on the crank, but the cams are not perfectly lined up. It seems that they are about 2 degrees off. Please let me know what you think, so i can fix it right now and finish this.
This shows it with the cams lined up, but the timing mark on the crank is about 2mm away.
This shows what the cams look like when the cranks timing mark is set. They are not correct. I am seriously confused.
01-04-2008 | 08:42 PM
#32
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
Ok, I just started taking the tensioners after talking to cilby. Here is what is going on. I have just begun to remove the tensioner and the cams are starting to slack. So i have not completed it and i have not heard a click, so i know i can just screw them back in and no harm will be done. Here are the pix.
Lobes are offset and off the valves.
Perfectly lined up!
THey are slacking
I am really concerned and confused why it isnt working as planned. Please give me any advice you have.
Lobes are offset and off the valves.
Perfectly lined up!
THey are slacking
I am really concerned and confused why it isnt working as planned. Please give me any advice you have.
Last edited by viperkillertt; 01-04-2008 at 08:45 PM.
01-20-2008 | 08:28 PM
#33
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
A NEW IDEA
Update:
Well, my friend finally helped me out and we did something that i haven't heard discussed on the forum. We have successfully done the rear tensioner and it wasn't that bad. The trick was using a hook to force the chain in tension during the switch. Obviously this takes a second person, but it worked marvelously. We did all the work on timing as i have already talked about but then we used a hook to hold the chain in, just in case it wasn't totally tight. Well it worked just great! I believe it was a car battery tie down and we just hooked it on the chain about the point where the tensioner was and just held it in. We also used a sharpie and made marks to where we started. After we were done everything was just perfect! So i would strongly suggest people carefully add this to their tensioner job.
Well, my friend finally helped me out and we did something that i haven't heard discussed on the forum. We have successfully done the rear tensioner and it wasn't that bad. The trick was using a hook to force the chain in tension during the switch. Obviously this takes a second person, but it worked marvelously. We did all the work on timing as i have already talked about but then we used a hook to hold the chain in, just in case it wasn't totally tight. Well it worked just great! I believe it was a car battery tie down and we just hooked it on the chain about the point where the tensioner was and just held it in. We also used a sharpie and made marks to where we started. After we were done everything was just perfect! So i would strongly suggest people carefully add this to their tensioner job.
Last edited by viperkillertt; 01-20-2008 at 08:31 PM.
01-20-2008 | 10:56 PM
#36
Moderator
MotoGP
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,708
If you havent kept up with the story here it is in a nut shell>
I have been a mechanic for 8 years and consider myself pretty good at workin on anything but even then sometimes I get impatient and rush things without refreshing on some things. What I did was removed the CCT's and did not put each cylinder at TDC which ended up jumping a tooth or three or seven, i never got that far. Granted at the time this was my only means of transportation and I had to work in the morning so I was already in a rush to get this thing finished so what started off as a simple MCCT job turned into a costly lesson on my part. It didnt take long either and I bet I didnt let it run a minute before I heard the dreaded rattle of valves slapping piston. Long story short I had to take the head off and drop it off at a shop. A month later and 300 bucks in the hole for parts and labor I got my head back today. Looking back I have a pdf manual OEM on my laptop, for some reason they have the cam spocket procedures backwards I **** you not. Says in big bold letters FRONT CAM SPROCKET PROCEDURE and then it procedes to tell you to look for the RT mark. lol I figured out how to get it all in time was just getting thrown off with bad info.
For those that are in this situation, keep in mind all four camshafts are off, chains off, etc. timing it from scratch. I setup the RT mark perfectly then looked down the hole where the spark plug goes and made sure I was at TDC for the rear cylinder. I then proceeded to install the cam shafts and set it up with RI and RE facing opposite and level with cylinder head. After I got that part done I put the MCCT in and slightly tightened to just hold the chain on ( i wasnt gonna adjust it all till everything was put back on) Now I have the rear cylinder in time and everything is cool, now we move to the front, I line up the FT mark and once again made sure the front cylinder was at TDC just like the rear one. Once again I aligned the FI and FE marks level and facing opposite and repeated the same with that MCCT. After turning the motor over manuallhy and ensuring everything is in time and nothing is binding I adjusted both MCCT"S leaving 1/4 inch of deflection between the cam sprockets then put the bridges back on and thats where im at now just taking a breather. Oh and to add on to my nice luck I drive my civic to the local motor shop because I had to swap valve shims once and on the way back I oeverheated and found out the head gasket took a **** on that thing so for now But seriously if anyone wants to tackle this job, its easy as pie just be patient and take the steps to do it right and youll be done in an hour easy. If you dont I can tell you now its not fun and youll be out of riding your VTR for awhile and out a few hundred bucks. Tommorrow ill finish buttoning it up or it may have to wait tillo monday but atleast its closer to being finished than it was. lol
I have been a mechanic for 8 years and consider myself pretty good at workin on anything but even then sometimes I get impatient and rush things without refreshing on some things. What I did was removed the CCT's and did not put each cylinder at TDC which ended up jumping a tooth or three or seven, i never got that far. Granted at the time this was my only means of transportation and I had to work in the morning so I was already in a rush to get this thing finished so what started off as a simple MCCT job turned into a costly lesson on my part. It didnt take long either and I bet I didnt let it run a minute before I heard the dreaded rattle of valves slapping piston. Long story short I had to take the head off and drop it off at a shop. A month later and 300 bucks in the hole for parts and labor I got my head back today. Looking back I have a pdf manual OEM on my laptop, for some reason they have the cam spocket procedures backwards I **** you not. Says in big bold letters FRONT CAM SPROCKET PROCEDURE and then it procedes to tell you to look for the RT mark. lol I figured out how to get it all in time was just getting thrown off with bad info.
For those that are in this situation, keep in mind all four camshafts are off, chains off, etc. timing it from scratch. I setup the RT mark perfectly then looked down the hole where the spark plug goes and made sure I was at TDC for the rear cylinder. I then proceeded to install the cam shafts and set it up with RI and RE facing opposite and level with cylinder head. After I got that part done I put the MCCT in and slightly tightened to just hold the chain on ( i wasnt gonna adjust it all till everything was put back on) Now I have the rear cylinder in time and everything is cool, now we move to the front, I line up the FT mark and once again made sure the front cylinder was at TDC just like the rear one. Once again I aligned the FI and FE marks level and facing opposite and repeated the same with that MCCT. After turning the motor over manuallhy and ensuring everything is in time and nothing is binding I adjusted both MCCT"S leaving 1/4 inch of deflection between the cam sprockets then put the bridges back on and thats where im at now just taking a breather. Oh and to add on to my nice luck I drive my civic to the local motor shop because I had to swap valve shims once and on the way back I oeverheated and found out the head gasket took a **** on that thing so for now But seriously if anyone wants to tackle this job, its easy as pie just be patient and take the steps to do it right and youll be done in an hour easy. If you dont I can tell you now its not fun and youll be out of riding your VTR for awhile and out a few hundred bucks. Tommorrow ill finish buttoning it up or it may have to wait tillo monday but atleast its closer to being finished than it was. lol
F.Y.I. just in case you ever have to do this again for whatever reason, it is easiest to time the front cylinder first then rotate the engine (counter clockwise of course) to the RT mark then time the rear. This way you do not have to count how many degrees you have rotated it. The VTR uses a single throw crank and the front cylinder fires first... easy enough to remember. Also when installing the cams, install the cam furthest away from the cct first. When you install it you will of taken up the slack between it and the driven gear already... this way it will not move when you take up the slack where the cct goes. I hope that makes sense.
Last edited by inderocker; 01-24-2008 at 01:55 PM.
01-30-2008 | 10:31 PM
#39
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
OKAY, so great news and weird news. First, the bike is done. Both tensioners are on and no bad issues.
It was very strange, it timed perfectly this time. I just set it like described in the walkthrough, no issues at all. I am so confused at what,OH!!! I just remembered. The rear cylinder has the old cams. 3 years ago, 150 miles after i bought the bike, the engine blew due to a chain tensioner going. Well, i had to rebuild it and i got a used head. Well, that is the second head i just changed the tensioner on. So the rear head has adjusted cams on it, which is why i couldn't get it timed correctly. This bike was super modified when i got it, so modified that i ran worth ****. I have fixed all those issues since then and it runs great now. Anyways back to my issue.
The Problem: The tension in the chain is very very substantial. So i need advice. Before i started the job, and i just had taken the valve cover off, the chain was really tight, there was no slack in the chain. So i want to know what people think of that? I have the new tensioner on, but i have turned the engine like 10x and it stays tight even when i loosen the tensioner. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks!
It was very strange, it timed perfectly this time. I just set it like described in the walkthrough, no issues at all. I am so confused at what,OH!!! I just remembered. The rear cylinder has the old cams. 3 years ago, 150 miles after i bought the bike, the engine blew due to a chain tensioner going. Well, i had to rebuild it and i got a used head. Well, that is the second head i just changed the tensioner on. So the rear head has adjusted cams on it, which is why i couldn't get it timed correctly. This bike was super modified when i got it, so modified that i ran worth ****. I have fixed all those issues since then and it runs great now. Anyways back to my issue.
The Problem: The tension in the chain is very very substantial. So i need advice. Before i started the job, and i just had taken the valve cover off, the chain was really tight, there was no slack in the chain. So i want to know what people think of that? I have the new tensioner on, but i have turned the engine like 10x and it stays tight even when i loosen the tensioner. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks!
Last edited by viperkillertt; 01-30-2008 at 10:37 PM.
01-31-2008 | 01:06 AM
#41
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
I don't think so, can you describe what i would be looking for. It turns smoothly, it just doesn't have the 1/4" slack that the instruction said i should have. It has been running like this for the last 5k miles. It had no slackness when i took the cover off before i changed it. I was just surprised.
01-31-2008 | 02:54 PM
#42
Administrator
World Champion
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 105,287
From: Fulton, MO
I believe the chain gets tighter when the engine is cold. So, if using APEs, you are adjusting while warm then you should back off a little bit. If using OEM then there's nothing you can do and the bike is operating as it was designed.
02-03-2008 | 04:05 PM
#44
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
final thoughts: I am still not totally sure why the intake cam on the front cylinder was so hard to work with, but i was able to get it to turn pretty smoothly after a while of working on it. The front cylinder was perfectly timed. It was strange, i could easily turn the chain tensioner with my hand to a very hard point. I don't know why. I followed the directions of turn until you cant turn, but that really would push the chain hard. So i had to fuss with it for a few days to get it to the right point. The engine would not turn at all when i turned the tensioner all the way down. Oh yeah, i also found out that one of my tensioners were bad. I could easily push the tensioner about 1/2 way down with my hand. I couldn't believe it. I haven't opened it up yet to see if the spring was broken or not.
Thoughts on the engine now: It does seem a bit different then last summer. I would almost say it feels a bit tighter. I only rode for about 20 minutes due to it being 37 degrees outside. I don't have winter gloves, only summer gloves that have air vents. I might take a video and see if anyone can tell me if it sounds weird or not. I am not sure, it sounds good, but i think it sounds just a bit different. I am hopefully going to meet up with the other hawk rider in bellingham soon. I would like to hear another hawk and compare. If i had a dyno, it would be very helpful. Well, thanks for the input. This 5 month project has been way more then i expected.
Thoughts on the engine now: It does seem a bit different then last summer. I would almost say it feels a bit tighter. I only rode for about 20 minutes due to it being 37 degrees outside. I don't have winter gloves, only summer gloves that have air vents. I might take a video and see if anyone can tell me if it sounds weird or not. I am not sure, it sounds good, but i think it sounds just a bit different. I am hopefully going to meet up with the other hawk rider in bellingham soon. I would like to hear another hawk and compare. If i had a dyno, it would be very helpful. Well, thanks for the input. This 5 month project has been way more then i expected.
06-28-2008 | 11:14 AM
#45
Senior Member
Back Marker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 160
From: Winter Haven, Florida
turning the engine with the rear wheel.
As the guy who started this thread found, turning the engine with the rear wheel is somewhere between hard and impossible. Pull as hard as you like and nothing moves. The bike just threatens to fall off the stand.
But, use the slack in the drive train to get a little inertia and the engine will turn in 6th, in a controllable way.
Also, For the record, my crank shaft plug also stripped while trying to remove it. I used a 10MM T wrench, a box end wrench on that and a cheater bar. It peeled like a ripe grape. (Bitch!!)
SECRET TECHNIQUE 107.5 MUST BE NEEDED HERE.
(note to self: find out what secret technique 107.5 is)
Tom
out
As the guy who started this thread found, turning the engine with the rear wheel is somewhere between hard and impossible. Pull as hard as you like and nothing moves. The bike just threatens to fall off the stand.
But, use the slack in the drive train to get a little inertia and the engine will turn in 6th, in a controllable way.
Also, For the record, my crank shaft plug also stripped while trying to remove it. I used a 10MM T wrench, a box end wrench on that and a cheater bar. It peeled like a ripe grape. (Bitch!!)
SECRET TECHNIQUE 107.5 MUST BE NEEDED HERE.
(note to self: find out what secret technique 107.5 is)
Tom
out
06-28-2008 | 11:19 AM
#46
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
Also, For the record, my crank shaft plug also stripped while trying to remove it. I used a 10MM T wrench, a box end wrench on that and a cheater bar. It peeled like a ripe grape. (Bitch!!)
SECRET TECHNIQUE 107.5 MUST BE NEEDED HERE.
(note to self: find out what secret technique 107.5 is)
Tom
out
Damn aluminum bike 
06-28-2008 | 12:40 PM
#47
Senior Member
Back Marker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 160
From: Winter Haven, Florida
later Saturday,
I soaked the plug with WD40 and a bit of liquid wrench. I tapped a 10 mm bolt head into the hole, being sure it bottomed and the plug turned out with a visegrips on the bolt shank.
either the tapping or the liquid wrench must have broken it loose, since the torque required wasn't that high.
Valve clearances are checked and I'm waiting for UPS to deliver.
Tom
I soaked the plug with WD40 and a bit of liquid wrench. I tapped a 10 mm bolt head into the hole, being sure it bottomed and the plug turned out with a visegrips on the bolt shank.
either the tapping or the liquid wrench must have broken it loose, since the torque required wasn't that high.
Valve clearances are checked and I'm waiting for UPS to deliver.
Tom
06-28-2008 | 12:44 PM
#48
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
later Saturday,
I soaked the plug with WD40 and a bit of liquid wrench. I tapped a 10 mm bolt head into the hole, being sure it bottomed and the plug turned out with a visegrips on the bolt shank.
either the tapping or the liquid wrench must have broken it loose, since the torque required wasn't that high.
Valve clearances are checked and I'm waiting for UPS to deliver.
Tom
I soaked the plug with WD40 and a bit of liquid wrench. I tapped a 10 mm bolt head into the hole, being sure it bottomed and the plug turned out with a visegrips on the bolt shank.
either the tapping or the liquid wrench must have broken it loose, since the torque required wasn't that high.
Valve clearances are checked and I'm waiting for UPS to deliver.
Tom
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