Manual CCT install thread
11-08-2007 | 03:07 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
*UPDATED* Manual CCT install thread -Need more help 1/31/08
Okay, i have begun it. I am having a hell of a time turning that wheel. Do you have any good tips to do it? Also, will it help to remove the spark plugs? I am using the sticky install and i didnt notice anything about removing the spark plugs? I am guessing they will not compress if they have a hole in them.
Second question is: It mentions the use of blue thread lock, where is this suppose to be put on? Which threads? On the bolts that the CCT goes into the block with? Thanks!
Edit 06/08: If you are reading this, i would strongly suggest not using the wheel method. It is nearly impossible to do. Use a wrench on the crank shaft to turn the engine. I learned this after hours of struggle.
Second question is: It mentions the use of blue thread lock, where is this suppose to be put on? Which threads? On the bolts that the CCT goes into the block with? Thanks!
Edit 06/08: If you are reading this, i would strongly suggest not using the wheel method. It is nearly impossible to do. Use a wrench on the crank shaft to turn the engine. I learned this after hours of struggle.
Last edited by viperkillertt; 06-28-2008 at 11:23 AM.
11-08-2007 | 05:41 PM
#3
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
Okay, how hard is this suppose to be? I have been seriously putting my whole body into it and i am able to turn it, but it is fricken hard as hell. The spark plugs are out now.
Also, i keep getting it lined up and then i go and check the hole to find f instead of r. What is going on?
Also, i keep getting it lined up and then i go and check the hole to find f instead of r. What is going on?
11-08-2007 | 05:57 PM
#5
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
I would love to do that, but my plug is stripped. So i dont know what to do. If i drained the oil and completely removed the side, i think that would be the only option. Anyone have any ideas? I fricken hate all the damn aluminum on this bike. Everything strips or breaks!
11-08-2007 | 06:30 PM
#7
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
Okay, i am baffled now. I had my roommate help me out and i dont understand. So i was able to line up the RT mark but the cams dont line up. I took pix. They are seriously not lining up with what is said in the manuals. Anyone have an idea? When i line up the cams, then it says ft, not rt.
11-08-2007 | 07:29 PM
#8
Escape Reality
SuperSport
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 612
From: KANATA, KANADA
Okay, i am baffled now. I had my roommate help me out and i dont understand. So i was able to line up the RT mark but the cams dont line up. I took pix. They are seriously not lining up with what is said in the manuals. Anyone have an idea? When i line up the cams, then it says ft, not rt.
Since you already taken the cover off...Just rotate it until both cams are off the valve and remove the CCT. At this point nothing will move or skip as no tension will be on the cams. Incidentally, if you want to follow the manual it is one more revolution back to the RT mark, the cam will be lined up. The cam lobes will face up and not be in contact with the lobe. Remember to take the key out as not to accidentally start it. I've seen people do this. It looks normal to me. BTW make sure the rubber gasket in the middle of the breather valve is on when you re-assemble the cover and make sure to align it. You will hate it when it falls out. That stainless tube nipple in the middle does come off. It is not affix to the head.
Last edited by calitoz; 11-08-2007 at 07:33 PM.
11-08-2007 | 07:54 PM
#9
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
Since you already taken the cover off...Just rotate it until both cams are off the valve and remove the CCT. At this point nothing will move or skip as no tension will be on the cams. Incidentally, if you want to follow the manual it is one more revolution back to the RT mark, the cam will be lined up. The cam lobes will face up and not be in contact with the lobe. Remember to take the key out as not to accidentally start it. I've seen people do this. It looks normal to me. BTW make sure the rubber gasket in the middle of the breather valve is on when you re-assemble the cover and make sure to align it. You will hate it when it falls out. That stainless tube nipple in the middle does come off. It is not affix to the head.
11-08-2007 | 08:02 PM
#10
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,138
From: Austin, Tx
This is not correct. Each cylinder reaches TDC four times in the engines firing cycle. Only one of the those is the compression stroke. You have to be on the compression stroke to remove the stock cct.
Lou, was your white paper destroyed in the server crash? I thought it was excellent and printed it right after you posted it - was about twenty pages or so. What a loss if it has gone away.
Lou, was your white paper destroyed in the server crash? I thought it was excellent and printed it right after you posted it - was about twenty pages or so. What a loss if it has gone away.
11-09-2007 | 12:22 AM
#12
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 247
From: Palm Bay, FL
This is not correct. Each cylinder reaches TDC four times in the engines firing cycle. Only one of the those is the compression stroke. You have to be on the compression stroke to remove the stock cct.
Lou, was your white paper destroyed in the server crash? I thought it was excellent and printed it right after you posted it - was about twenty pages or so. What a loss if it has gone away.
Lou, was your white paper destroyed in the server crash? I thought it was excellent and printed it right after you posted it - was about twenty pages or so. What a loss if it has gone away.
Sorry but in a 4-stroke engine.....intake,compression, power, exhaust. Intake downtravel, compression uptravel, power downtravel, exhaust uptravel. Begins intake downtravel as soon as exhaust TDC hits.....so there's 2 TDC's per combustion cycle in any given cylinder
11-09-2007 | 06:02 AM
#13
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SuperBike
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,455
From: Williamsburg, VA
Finding TDC on compression stroke is easy. I've never had to do it on the hawk, but here is the general idea.
Take out your sparkplug. Find a long thin wooden dowel or a long drinking straw. Drop it into the spark plug hole being very very careful that it doesn't fall all the way in so that you can't get it back out. Nothing will **** you off like having to take off a head to pull a freaking straw out. Turn the engine slowly while watching the rise and fall of the straw. It will have a slight pause at the top of it's travel, that's TDC. When you see that pause and neither one of the valves for that cylinder are open, that's the compression stroke. Just watch the lobes on the cam as it's turning, when they are putting no pressure on the valve that means it's closed.
Take out your sparkplug. Find a long thin wooden dowel or a long drinking straw. Drop it into the spark plug hole being very very careful that it doesn't fall all the way in so that you can't get it back out. Nothing will **** you off like having to take off a head to pull a freaking straw out. Turn the engine slowly while watching the rise and fall of the straw. It will have a slight pause at the top of it's travel, that's TDC. When you see that pause and neither one of the valves for that cylinder are open, that's the compression stroke. Just watch the lobes on the cam as it's turning, when they are putting no pressure on the valve that means it's closed.
11-09-2007 | 06:37 AM
#14
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You can also find the compression stroke TDC by simply aligning the 'RT' timing mark (for the rear cyl) when the cam lobes are all pointed up (and not contacting the valves). That's the only safe position to remove the cct. After you finish with the rear cyl just turn the crank CCW 450° to align the 'FT' timing mark and the front cyl will be at compression-TDC (you don't need to remove the front valve cover to confirm this if you are starting from the known rear-TDC)
It's much easier to turn the crank with a socket at the crank but if you absolutely must turn the rear wheel make sure you're in 6th gear.
It's much easier to turn the crank with a socket at the crank but if you absolutely must turn the rear wheel make sure you're in 6th gear.
11-09-2007 | 10:52 AM
#15
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
You can also find the compression stroke TDC by simply aligning the 'RT' timing mark (for the rear cyl) when the cam lobes are all pointed up (and not contacting the valves). That's the only safe position to remove the cct. After you finish with the rear cyl just turn the crank CCW 450° to align the 'FT' timing mark and the front cyl will be at compression-TDC (you don't need to remove the front valve cover to confirm this if you are starting from the known rear-TDC)
It's much easier to turn the crank with a socket at the crank but if you absolutely must turn the rear wheel make sure you're in 6th gear.
It's much easier to turn the crank with a socket at the crank but if you absolutely must turn the rear wheel make sure you're in 6th gear.
11-09-2007 | 12:21 PM
#16
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From: East Tennessee
Are you sure the cam lobes are all pointed 'up' off the valve buckets? If you align the 'RT' mark with the cam lobes 'down' you will not get the timing gear marks to align.
11-09-2007 | 02:52 PM
#17
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From: PA
I found it much easier to use the nut under the cover to turn it over. Is the hex socket fubared, or are the plug threads stripped?
11-09-2007 | 03:37 PM
#18
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MotoGP
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,138
From: Austin, Tx
Sorry but in a 4-stroke engine.....intake,compression, power, exhaust. Intake downtravel, compression uptravel, power downtravel, exhaust uptravel. Begins intake downtravel as soon as exhaust TDC hits.....so there's 2 TDC's per combustion cycle in any given cylinder
11-09-2007 | 05:10 PM
#19
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
Did you try this at both TDC's? If the cams are not up off the valves at the RT mark (you are seeing "RT" right, it's not clear from the pic), turn it another 360 back to RT and see if they are up then.
I found it much easier to use the nut under the cover to turn it over. Is the hex socket fubared, or are the plug threads stripped?
I found it much easier to use the nut under the cover to turn it over. Is the hex socket fubared, or are the plug threads stripped?
11-09-2007 | 05:54 PM
#20
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SuperBike
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,082
From: Menifee, CA
The bike stand was a good investment regardless, assuming it allows you to do other things like remove the rear wheel etc. It might be time to back off the CCT replacement unless their broken and focus on removing the access plug and removing your frustration of rotating the engine with the rear wheel. Try some wd40 on the backside of the cap let it set then awhile then take a broad chisel and lightly tap on it at about a 45 degree angle counterclockwise to loosen it up and remove it. If that doesn't work then button her up and ride her to the dealer!
11-09-2007 | 05:59 PM
#21
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
The bike stand was a good investment regardless, assuming it allows you to do other things like remove the rear wheel etc. It might be time to back off the CCT replacement unless their broken and focus on removing the access plug and removing your frustration of rotating the engine with the rear wheel. Try some wd40 on the backside of the cap let it set then awhile then take a broad chisel and lightly tap on it at about a 45 degree angle counterclockwise to loosen it up and remove it. If that doesn't work then button her up and ride her to the dealer!
11-09-2007 | 07:47 PM
#22
Escape Reality
SuperSport
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 612
From: KANATA, KANADA
This is not correct. Each cylinder reaches TDC four times in the engines firing cycle. Only one of the those is the compression stroke. You have to be on the compression stroke to remove the stock cct.
Lou, was your white paper destroyed in the server crash? I thought it was excellent and printed it right after you posted it - was about twenty pages or so. What a loss if it has gone away.
Lou, was your white paper destroyed in the server crash? I thought it was excellent and printed it right after you posted it - was about twenty pages or so. What a loss if it has gone away.
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ad.php?t=11275
11-09-2007 | 08:24 PM
#23
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MotoGP
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Posts: 4,138
From: Austin, Tx
11-09-2007 | 08:39 PM
#24
Escape Reality
SuperSport
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 612
From: KANATA, KANADA
If you have the head cover off already....just move the cams off the valve seats and change the CCT....as stated above. The alignment you have is correct...There is nothing wrong. The reason for why it is in this position even at the RT mark is that it is at a different cycle..Rotate it again and the lobe will be at a different point. If my memory is correct the lobe will aim up.
eg: One rotation of the crank does not equal one rotation of the cams.
As 99Hawk stated once you are at the RT mark and the lobes are aiming up rotate the crank 450 degree to the FT mark and the front cams will be like the rear as you had it for the rear.
Now get your hawk back together and enjoy the ride
11-10-2007 | 09:35 AM
#25
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From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
If your cam timing is off by as much as it is in those pics then DO NOT "button her and and ride her to the dealer". It won't live much past 5 or 6 rpm before you kill the engine if the timing is off that much. Just to be sure - DON'T START THE ENGINE NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And don't try to turn it, either. You'll get PTV contact and bend/break something.
I am, however, correct with HRCA#1's suggestion - let's start with WHY that cap's threads are stripped. No offense man, but if you started off with a problem with that you might want to consider leaving this job to someone that has more experience turning a wrench. So what happened to that cap??????
I am, however, correct with HRCA#1's suggestion - let's start with WHY that cap's threads are stripped. No offense man, but if you started off with a problem with that you might want to consider leaving this job to someone that has more experience turning a wrench. So what happened to that cap??????
11-10-2007 | 10:14 AM
#26
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,082
From: Menifee, CA
By backside of the cap I meant that gap between the cap and the case cover...I was also assuming that the thing was running properly when they started this project and that they hadn't removed the CCT's yet, therefore they really aren't off any teeth, they're just "mechanically challenged".
11-10-2007 | 10:33 AM
#27
Thread Starter
Josh
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
From: Spokane, WA
Oh, the timing is perfect. I am just replacing the CCT's because they are fricken noisy. 
I remember that like 2 years ago when i rebuilt the engine after a bad cct, the cap was on super tight. Well i attempted to take it off when i started this job the other day, and it just stripped.
I remember that like 2 years ago when i rebuilt the engine after a bad cct, the cap was on super tight. Well i attempted to take it off when i started this job the other day, and it just stripped.
12-13-2007 | 12:45 PM
#28
Member
Squid
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 53
I need some help with this as well. I botched my CCT install and after replacing 2 valves and reinstalling the head Im back at square one with 2 ape MCCT's and I gotta get this bitch back in time. The manual says RT for rear and FT for Front. RT is supposed to be TDC for R and the same for FT. What I cant figure out is where my marks need to be either pointed at each other or facing out. Its not clear in the manual. What would be the proper procedure starting with hte rear cylinder with all cam gears loose and both chains loose? I wanna start with the rear cylinder and get that right then do the front and be done with this. I did look at the CCT thread but it isnt helping me clarify what exactly I need to do and the steps involved and the manual is unclear. If someone has a link to these directions or could inform me how to do this properly I would GREATLY appreciate it. Thanks
12-13-2007 | 05:20 PM
#29
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From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
The reference marks on the camshaft gears should ALWAYS be facing out or facing away from each other. Also, you should be abe to read them, they should NOT be up-side-down. This is for FI, FE, RI and RE. The mark itself (the line, not the letters) shouuld line up with the top face of the edge of the cylinder hear, where the valve cover would go.
Not sure how much help I can be, but for all our sake - what state is the engine in at the moment? You said you had to replace two valves (holy mackeral!), so are the heads on or off? Is the engine in or out of the bike? Cams on or off the heads? It might help others help you.
Not sure how much help I can be, but for all our sake - what state is the engine in at the moment? You said you had to replace two valves (holy mackeral!), so are the heads on or off? Is the engine in or out of the bike? Cams on or off the heads? It might help others help you.
12-13-2007 | 06:12 PM
#30
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Squid
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 53
The reference marks on the camshaft gears should ALWAYS be facing out or facing away from each other. Also, you should be abe to read them, they should NOT be up-side-down. This is for FI, FE, RI and RE. The mark itself (the line, not the letters) shouuld line up with the top face of the edge of the cylinder hear, where the valve cover would go.
Not sure how much help I can be, but for all our sake - what state is the engine in at the moment? You said you had to replace two valves (holy mackeral!), so are the heads on or off? Is the engine in or out of the bike? Cams on or off the heads? It might help others help you.
Not sure how much help I can be, but for all our sake - what state is the engine in at the moment? You said you had to replace two valves (holy mackeral!), so are the heads on or off? Is the engine in or out of the bike? Cams on or off the heads? It might help others help you.
I have been a mechanic for 8 years and consider myself pretty good at workin on anything but even then sometimes I get impatient and rush things without refreshing on some things. What I did was removed the CCT's and did not put each cylinder at TDC which ended up jumping a tooth or three or seven, i never got that far. Granted at the time this was my only means of transportation and I had to work in the morning so I was already in a rush to get this thing finished so what started off as a simple MCCT job turned into a costly lesson on my part. It didnt take long either and I bet I didnt let it run a minute before I heard the dreaded rattle of valves slapping piston. Long story short I had to take the head off and drop it off at a shop. A month later and 300 bucks in the hole for parts and labor I got my head back today. Looking back I have a pdf manual OEM on my laptop, for some reason they have the cam spocket procedures backwards I **** you not. Says in big bold letters FRONT CAM SPROCKET PROCEDURE and then it procedes to tell you to look for the RT mark. lol I figured out how to get it all in time was just getting thrown off with bad info.
For those that are in this situation, keep in mind all four camshafts are off, chains off, etc. timing it from scratch. I setup the RT mark perfectly then looked down the hole where the spark plug goes and made sure I was at TDC for the rear cylinder. I then proceeded to install the cam shafts and set it up with RI and RE facing opposite and level with cylinder head. After I got that part done I put the MCCT in and slightly tightened to just hold the chain on ( i wasnt gonna adjust it all till everything was put back on) Now I have the rear cylinder in time and everything is cool, now we move to the front, I line up the FT mark and once again made sure the front cylinder was at TDC just like the rear one. Once again I aligned the FI and FE marks level and facing opposite and repeated the same with that MCCT. After turning the motor over manuallhy and ensuring everything is in time and nothing is binding I adjusted both MCCT"S leaving 1/4 inch of deflection between the cam sprockets then put the bridges back on and thats where im at now just taking a breather. Oh and to add on to my nice luck I drive my civic to the local motor shop because I had to swap valve shims once and on the way back I oeverheated and found out the head gasket took a **** on that thing so for now But seriously if anyone wants to tackle this job, its easy as pie just be patient and take the steps to do it right and youll be done in an hour easy. If you dont I can tell you now its not fun and youll be out of riding your VTR for awhile and out a few hundred bucks. Tommorrow ill finish buttoning it up or it may have to wait tillo monday but atleast its closer to being finished than it was. lol
