lowered the front, handling greatly improved
05-22-2012 | 11:07 AM
#2
Banned
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
You have already gone way too far and will get yourself in trouble..... 10mm is about the most you should go with the forks.
Do you understand rake and trail? Not trying to out you down or anything but it is something you should understand before you start making geometry changes.
I did do a thread a while back on it and it might be good for you to read.
Also you have greatly reduced the already minimal ground clearance of the bike and also lowered the CG which will make it transition slower from side to side.
While the CG is a personal thing the ground clearance can damage the header at best or throw you in the ditch if you are not careful.
The first part that touches down on these bikes is the header right under the engine in right hand turns. Mine has a few good scrapes on it and Tweety actually put a hole in his with just 10mm of change to the forks.
In my experience it is actually hard to tell when you touch it down, which means to me it would be real easy to lever the front wheel off the ground and then its all over.
That is why I suggest to start by raising the rear of the bike. Not only do you make the geometry changes of increasing the rake and reducing trail you also raise the CG for quicker transitions and also add a bit of ground clearance.
Then if you still want more, start making changes to the front.
One last point, when you do make geometry changes, do it in small steps. 5mm at a time is the standard amount unless you already know what the changes will do. Go in large amounts, like you have, and while you might get lucky sometimes you also take the chance of making the bike unstable which usually shows up at the least opportune time and I already had to see (or at least hear about) one friend die this week.
Yes that is how serious mess with the bikes geometry can be if you don't understand what you are really doing.
So in closing experimenting is good to get the bike set up for your riding style but make small steps and always thoroughly test the bike to see if it now does something weird or unsafe before making a more radical change.
Hope I have not offend you in any way, that was not my intent, jusy looking out for you.
Do you understand rake and trail? Not trying to out you down or anything but it is something you should understand before you start making geometry changes.
I did do a thread a while back on it and it might be good for you to read.
Also you have greatly reduced the already minimal ground clearance of the bike and also lowered the CG which will make it transition slower from side to side.
While the CG is a personal thing the ground clearance can damage the header at best or throw you in the ditch if you are not careful.
The first part that touches down on these bikes is the header right under the engine in right hand turns. Mine has a few good scrapes on it and Tweety actually put a hole in his with just 10mm of change to the forks.
In my experience it is actually hard to tell when you touch it down, which means to me it would be real easy to lever the front wheel off the ground and then its all over.
That is why I suggest to start by raising the rear of the bike. Not only do you make the geometry changes of increasing the rake and reducing trail you also raise the CG for quicker transitions and also add a bit of ground clearance.
Then if you still want more, start making changes to the front.
One last point, when you do make geometry changes, do it in small steps. 5mm at a time is the standard amount unless you already know what the changes will do. Go in large amounts, like you have, and while you might get lucky sometimes you also take the chance of making the bike unstable which usually shows up at the least opportune time and I already had to see (or at least hear about) one friend die this week.
Yes that is how serious mess with the bikes geometry can be if you don't understand what you are really doing.
So in closing experimenting is good to get the bike set up for your riding style but make small steps and always thoroughly test the bike to see if it now does something weird or unsafe before making a more radical change.
Hope I have not offend you in any way, that was not my intent, jusy looking out for you.
05-22-2012 | 11:14 AM
#3
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 344
Nope you haven't offended me, in fact I am being a little "cheeky" posting this without an explanation...my forks were setup incorrectly by someone who I won't be taking the bike back to...as a result they're very stiff, and no amount of backing off the preload will get the correct ride height or sag in the front.
I rode the bike over to another forum member's house (speedkelly) so he could instruct me in the basics of tuning the carbs on these bikes and take a look since my bike hasn't run correctly after a shop swapped engines...he rode the bike and commented that it was riding like a cruiser in the front.
I had noticed the bike was really hard to get to turn, but I saw the very thread you suggested I read...and so I never wanted to mess with the front before, but after hearing someone else say the front was too high I decided to lower it and test...I set the height based on where the bike 'looked' like it should be in the front (I am running a JD motorsports modified rear shock with a shim and the rear is higher than stock) and then went for a test ride...and it was great....the weekend ride through the canyons confirmed it...easier turn in, but still high enough to be stable and not bottom out the header or pegs.
There is some great info on here from both you and Tweety, thanks for being concerned enough to respond.
I rode the bike over to another forum member's house (speedkelly) so he could instruct me in the basics of tuning the carbs on these bikes and take a look since my bike hasn't run correctly after a shop swapped engines...he rode the bike and commented that it was riding like a cruiser in the front.
I had noticed the bike was really hard to get to turn, but I saw the very thread you suggested I read...and so I never wanted to mess with the front before, but after hearing someone else say the front was too high I decided to lower it and test...I set the height based on where the bike 'looked' like it should be in the front (I am running a JD motorsports modified rear shock with a shim and the rear is higher than stock) and then went for a test ride...and it was great....the weekend ride through the canyons confirmed it...easier turn in, but still high enough to be stable and not bottom out the header or pegs.
There is some great info on here from both you and Tweety, thanks for being concerned enough to respond.
Last edited by blamecanada; 05-22-2012 at 11:17 AM.
05-22-2012 | 11:26 AM
#4
Banned
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
Ok makes sense now.... and some folks do take my writing style the wrong way at times so I just wanted to make sure....
Not being able to set the sag does change things a bit...
If you have a front end stand, it is pretty easy to remove the tops of the stock forks and cut the spacers down so you can get the sag set correctly.
I would also check the oil level while I was in there.
If you need any help with this let me know and I can tell you how to do it as I'm a bit far to have you swing by and get it dialed in for you....
Not being able to set the sag does change things a bit...
If you have a front end stand, it is pretty easy to remove the tops of the stock forks and cut the spacers down so you can get the sag set correctly.
I would also check the oil level while I was in there.
If you need any help with this let me know and I can tell you how to do it as I'm a bit far to have you swing by and get it dialed in for you....
05-22-2012 | 11:31 AM
#5
the boss
SuperBike
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,182
From: largo,fl
Sounds like the original spacers was used.
I kinda have same issue,my sag is where it should be if wound all the way out.which I'm guessing top out is not far.as said above,if you cut spacers,than you should be where you need to be so you don't top or bottom out.
I kinda have same issue,my sag is where it should be if wound all the way out.which I'm guessing top out is not far.as said above,if you cut spacers,than you should be where you need to be so you don't top or bottom out.
05-22-2012 | 12:57 PM
#6
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 433
From: Los Angeles & Winston Salem
So, that's like a 30-40 mm drop! Crazy, but it works? Bike looked really good, with no stability issues up in the mountains.
On another note, Jetting? is 185/180 main jets considered really huge? I helped nick out a little with his carbs and these were the main jet sizes? It still had the stock pilot jets. I set the fuel/air screws at 2 1/2 turns out. The needles are aftermarket also, with short springs on the slides. An extra air hole had been drilled into the slide. The needle clip was set at 3 notches from the lowest setting. I think it may have had 6 or 7 notches on them? What say you all carb experts. My butt-o-meter tells me super rich. O, and another thing it has a single, very free flowing muffler. The engine in Nick's bike originally belonged to Indierocker. When I removed the carbs, the intakes had a really nice port and polish job on them.
On another note, Jetting? is 185/180 main jets considered really huge? I helped nick out a little with his carbs and these were the main jet sizes? It still had the stock pilot jets. I set the fuel/air screws at 2 1/2 turns out. The needles are aftermarket also, with short springs on the slides. An extra air hole had been drilled into the slide. The needle clip was set at 3 notches from the lowest setting. I think it may have had 6 or 7 notches on them? What say you all carb experts. My butt-o-meter tells me super rich. O, and another thing it has a single, very free flowing muffler. The engine in Nick's bike originally belonged to Indierocker. When I removed the carbs, the intakes had a really nice port and polish job on them.
05-22-2012 | 01:30 PM
#7
Slacker
Superstock
Superstock
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 489
From: San Antonio, TX
On another note, Jetting? is 185/180 main jets considered really huge? I helped nick out a little with his carbs and these were the main jet sizes? It still had the stock pilot jets. I set the fuel/air screws at 2 1/2 turns out. The needles are aftermarket also, with short springs on the slides. An extra air hole had been drilled into the slide. The needle clip was set at 3 notches from the lowest setting. I think it may have had 6 or 7 notches on them? ... O, and another thing it has a single, very free flowing muffler.
That is a DynoJet setup, the needle should have 6 grooves.
How is power delivery? Does it take full throttle from low RPM and give really good linear power delivery all the way to redline? Any anomalies with steady low RPM cruise, or midrange? Does the person riding the next bike in line smell raw fuel or notice black smoke when going wide open?
05-22-2012 | 01:36 PM
#8
Banned
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
Also dyno jet numbers are differnt than other manufactures but that is because they also use a fatter needle, so it all kind of evens out.
Personally I have never gotten the results that I like with a dtno jet kit on this bike.
With other bikes, no problem but not this one.
The reason for this is IMHO the front slide already opens too fast (the reasons are all listed in my set up thread) so adding a lift hole to make it open faster is just not the way to go.
Though some folks say they have gotten good results with the dyno jet set up.
Hopefully one of them will set up and help you out as while I would say that the jets do sound too large I also remember I spent around 2 years trying to get my bike to run the way I wanted with that kit and tried so many different things that I really don't remember all of what I tried.
Personally I have never gotten the results that I like with a dtno jet kit on this bike.
With other bikes, no problem but not this one.
The reason for this is IMHO the front slide already opens too fast (the reasons are all listed in my set up thread) so adding a lift hole to make it open faster is just not the way to go.
Though some folks say they have gotten good results with the dyno jet set up.
Hopefully one of them will set up and help you out as while I would say that the jets do sound too large I also remember I spent around 2 years trying to get my bike to run the way I wanted with that kit and tried so many different things that I really don't remember all of what I tried.
05-22-2012 | 01:38 PM
#9
Banned
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
05-22-2012 | 02:12 PM
#10
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 344
Much will depend on how the single muffler is fitted, and on what air filter is being utilized.
How is power delivery? Does it take full throttle from low RPM and give really good linear power delivery all the way to redline? Any anomalies with steady low RPM cruise, or midrange? Does the person riding the next bike in line smell raw fuel or notice black smoke when going wide open?
How is power delivery? Does it take full throttle from low RPM and give really good linear power delivery all the way to redline? Any anomalies with steady low RPM cruise, or midrange? Does the person riding the next bike in line smell raw fuel or notice black smoke when going wide open?
Steady state throttle on the freeway has the bike hesitating and coming back on power alternately...wide open throttle is good all the way from low rpm to redline...the issues are at part throttle.
This is with stock filter, I plan to put in a K&N this evening to test what happens...if it gets worse instead of better than I think it will show it is leaning out rather than running too rich in that range and I will try shimming the needles a bit...I am still waiting for jets to arrive.
-N
Oh, also the bike doesn't smoke
Last edited by blamecanada; 05-22-2012 at 02:15 PM.
05-22-2012 | 02:28 PM
#11
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 617
From: In a van down by the river (I wish!)
Dude who sold me my SH had the forks dropped about 30mm, but kept the clip ons at the top of the tubes to improve ergonomics. I’m embarrassed to say I rode the bike like this for months before fixing it.
Last edited by Crashrat; 05-22-2012 at 02:33 PM.
05-22-2012 | 02:29 PM
#12
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,082
From: Menifee, CA
05-22-2012 | 02:35 PM
#13
Seasoned tech
SuperSport
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 576
From: Issaquah, WA
I'd try to raise the needles half to one clip position. Sounds like it's starving for fuel in that mid range area. I'd bet the K&N makes it even worse. If you're going to do the K&N I think I'd put it at least at one full clip position. If you just leave the filter in it that's in it I'd try a half step by installing a shim first.
05-22-2012 | 02:45 PM
#15
Banned
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
The bike is good from idle to 3000 rpm, from 3000 rpm to about 6000 nothing happens from 0 throttle until 1/4-1/3 turn throttle...basically it's really really difficult or impossible to use maintenance throttle and then smoothly exit a corner...the bike hesitates and then the power comes on all at once.
Steady state throttle on the freeway has the bike hesitating and coming back on power alternately...wide open throttle is good all the way from low rpm to redline...the issues are at part throttle.
This is with stock filter, I plan to put in a K&N this evening to test what happens...if it gets worse instead of better than I think it will show it is leaning out rather than running too rich in that range and I will try shimming the needles a bit...I am still waiting for jets to arrive.
-N
Oh, also the bike doesn't smoke
Steady state throttle on the freeway has the bike hesitating and coming back on power alternately...wide open throttle is good all the way from low rpm to redline...the issues are at part throttle.
This is with stock filter, I plan to put in a K&N this evening to test what happens...if it gets worse instead of better than I think it will show it is leaning out rather than running too rich in that range and I will try shimming the needles a bit...I am still waiting for jets to arrive.
-N
Oh, also the bike doesn't smoke
05-22-2012 | 02:47 PM
#16
Banned
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
Not really irritated, just without an explanation of why it was done led to a concern that a fellow list member could get themselves in deep trouble if they didn't fully understand the consequences of pulling the forks that high up in the triples.
05-22-2012 | 02:55 PM
#17
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 344
05-22-2012 | 05:07 PM
#19
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,082
From: Menifee, CA
Don't chase the symtoms fix the problem! You and Tweety (and a few others)have provided more real information about what works and what doesn't and how to do it all and still they want to try to make what has been proven not to work..work!
I bought a high mileage 98 in January, I'm still resolving issues from PO's and collecting parts for upgrades etc. It actually has gotten to the point where I'm taking it down to the frame and starting over! If I had the money I'd tear down the motor too but that'll have to wait till next year!
05-22-2012 | 05:26 PM
#20
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 344
Many of the young guys on SH seem to want to hear a different answer than the reality dictates and don't seem to think things through very well.
Don't chase the symtoms fix the problem! You and Tweety (and a few others)have provided more real information about what works and what doesn't and how to do it all and still they want to try to make what has been proven not to work..work!
Don't chase the symtoms fix the problem! You and Tweety (and a few others)have provided more real information about what works and what doesn't and how to do it all and still they want to try to make what has been proven not to work..work!
Personally, as one of those 'younger' SH owners I would say that a unique situation requires a unique solution; If I was starting with a stock bike I already know where to find 8541Hawk's carb setup thread (in my bookmark folder), and what to search for to find examples of how to establish a baseline to tune suspension and geometry with.
05-22-2012 | 06:30 PM
#21
Slacker
Superstock
Superstock
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 489
From: San Antonio, TX
The bike is good from idle to 3000 rpm, from 3000 rpm to about 6000 nothing happens from 0 throttle until 1/4-1/3 turn throttle...basically it's really really difficult or impossible to use maintenance throttle and then smoothly exit a corner...the bike hesitates and then the power comes on all at once.
Steady state throttle on the freeway has the bike hesitating and coming back on power alternately...wide open throttle is good all the way from low rpm to redline...the issues are at part throttle.
This is with stock filter, I plan to put in a K&N this evening to test what happens...if it gets worse instead of better than I think it will show it is leaning out rather than running too rich in that range and I will try shimming the needles a bit...I am still waiting for jets to arrive.
-N
Oh, also the bike doesn't smoke
Steady state throttle on the freeway has the bike hesitating and coming back on power alternately...wide open throttle is good all the way from low rpm to redline...the issues are at part throttle.
This is with stock filter, I plan to put in a K&N this evening to test what happens...if it gets worse instead of better than I think it will show it is leaning out rather than running too rich in that range and I will try shimming the needles a bit...I am still waiting for jets to arrive.
-N
Oh, also the bike doesn't smoke
I would install the K&N first to feel the differences. It is easy to do and will give you a better understanding of how the engine fuels. I bet the cruise problem you are having will get a little worse, and the top end will feel stronger.
But, that single exhaust can will complicate things. How is it connected? The way I have heard several others do it, they cut off the stock exhaust pipe right where the head pipes join, then fabricate a mid pipe connecting to a muffler. If yours is done this way it will probably work well enough.
These are my opinions and are open to scrutiny.
Last edited by BeerHunter; 05-23-2012 at 10:27 PM.
05-22-2012 | 09:22 PM
#23
Slacker
Superstock
Superstock
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 489
From: San Antonio, TX
05-22-2012 | 10:12 PM
#25
the boss
SuperBike
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,182
From: largo,fl
05-23-2012 | 12:30 AM
#26
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 344
I would install the K&H first to feel the differences. It is easy to do and will give you a better understanding of how the engine fuels. I bet the cruise problem you are having will get a little worse, and the top end will feel stronger.
But, that single exhaust can will complicate things. How is it connected? The way I have heard several others do it, they cut off the stock exhaust pipe right where the head pipes join, then fabricate a mid pipe connecting to a muffler.
The third clip position on the needle has not given clean throttle response no matter what other adjustments I have made. The starting point for a stock filter with the DJ kit is mains 175F, 180R clip groove #4 from top. The mains you have in there now are too big and may give the midrange an overly rich mixture on WOT once the needles are set to #4. It could also run really well like that with your single muffler.
I have some jets coming my way from a fellow forum member, gotta find a good place to order a 175 though.
Thanks all for the suggestions.
Last edited by blamecanada; 05-23-2012 at 12:34 AM.
05-23-2012 | 12:47 AM
#27
Banned
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
Well here is the Honda part # 99101-MCK-1750
if you wish to get it from Honda
Sudco can also get you just about any carb part you might need
Sudco International - Modern and Vintage Replacment and Performance parts for Street Bikes, Dirt Bikes, ATVs and Personal Watercraft, Used Classic Bikes.
if you wish to get it from Honda
Sudco can also get you just about any carb part you might need
Sudco International - Modern and Vintage Replacment and Performance parts for Street Bikes, Dirt Bikes, ATVs and Personal Watercraft, Used Classic Bikes.
05-23-2012 | 10:28 AM
#30
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 344
runs like crap pretty much everywhere, I can barely get the bike to go above 3000 RPM...gotta really twist open the throttle and even then it bogs down really bad.
I think the ridiculously huge main jets I have are probably the issue, going to go back to stock and tune from there.
I think the ridiculously huge main jets I have are probably the issue, going to go back to stock and tune from there.
