Technical Discussion Topics related to Technical Issues

This Is Engineering??

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 03-06-2010 | 05:53 PM
  #1  
bjorn toulouse's Avatar
Thread Starter
Destructive Tester
Superstock
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 263
From: N.E. oHIo
bjorn toulouse is on a distinguished road
This Is Engineering??

Years ago, when I was the R&D Mgr. at SuperTrapp/Kerker, I was sometimes amazed at the "quality" of the engineering on some OEM exhausts.

This connection, the "Y" to the mufflers on my CheeperHawk, looking into the right, is the most FUBARed I have ever seen! Someone at Honda should be slapped!!


Rex


Name:  crappipe.jpg
Views: 71
Size:  27.9 KB
Old 03-06-2010 | 06:59 PM
  #2  
LineArrayNut's Avatar
I could ride in
SuperBike
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,729
From: Dayton, TN
LineArrayNut is on a distinguished road
grind it out when you swap from stockers to slip-ons... and then report on the disparity in strength of exhaust pulses... maybe they weren't such slackers after all...
Old 03-06-2010 | 07:00 PM
  #3  
lazn's Avatar
Senior Member
MotoGP
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,132
From: Phoenix, AZ
lazn is on a distinguished road
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...st+restriction
Old 03-06-2010 | 07:01 PM
  #4  
VTRsurfer's Avatar
Senior Member
MotoGP
 
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,451
From: San Clemente, CA
VTRsurfer is on a distinguished road
Wow! That's amazing. I have stock cans, but that makes me want to take off the right one to see what it looks like.

I put a SuperTrapp all stainless 4 into 1 on my '86 CB700SC Nighthawk as soon as it was broken in with 600 miles. I loved that I didn't have to rejet, I think I had 6 discs installed. I looked up Supertrapp when I bought my VTR, and was disappointed to find out they are all Harley now.
Old 03-06-2010 | 07:03 PM
  #5  
steve.g's Avatar
Senior Member
Superstock
 
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 347
From: S.Dak USA
steve.g is on a distinguished road
Its my understanding that the restrictors in that part of the stock pipe are necessary to tune the exhaust.I could be wrong but,when I posted a question as to what would happen if I ground them out the majority opinion was DO NOT mess with them.
Old 03-06-2010 | 09:10 PM
  #6  
yellowstorm's Avatar
dave
Squid
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 31
From: sydney australia
yellowstorm is on a distinguished road
I grinded out the restrictor & found I lost power & that is with after market pipes so for me I would just keep it the way honda made them because it takes time to grind them out & more time to weld it back in
Old 03-06-2010 | 09:35 PM
  #7  
E.Marquez's Avatar
Administrator
MotoGP
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,402
From: Kempner, TX
E.Marquez is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by bjorn toulouse
Years ago, when I was the R&D Mgr. at SuperTrapp/Kerker, I was sometimes amazed at the "quality" of the engineering on some OEM exhausts.

This connection, the "Y" to the mufflers on my CheeperHawk, looking into the right, is the most FUBARed I have ever seen! Someone at Honda should be slapped!!


Definition of Irony???




Grind it out and have at the dyno, please post the AF tables and jetting corrections you made. Would be an interesting afternoon on the Dyno thats for sure.
Old 03-06-2010 | 10:53 PM
  #8  
bjorn toulouse's Avatar
Thread Starter
Destructive Tester
Superstock
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 263
From: N.E. oHIo
bjorn toulouse is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by LineArrayNut
grind it out when you swap from stockers to slip-ons... and then report on the disparity in strength of exhaust pulses... maybe they weren't such slackers after all...

Actually, I'm going to cut the "Y" off the end of the collector as a 2 into 1, SuperTrapp megaphone, right side exit is in the plans.

They were slackin'.


Rex

Last edited by bjorn toulouse; 03-06-2010 at 10:56 PM. Reason: speelage
Old 03-06-2010 | 11:58 PM
  #9  
autoteach's Avatar
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,611
From: Belgium, WI
autoteach is on a distinguished road
You will notice a difference with a 2 into 1, and it may not be the difference that you are looking for. If you used two supertrapp cans with the stock y (cleaned out) you would be able to tune your back pressure and get the results that you are looking for (most likely). I would just be cautious, as more flow doesn't mean more power when it comes to the stock engine and its exhaust.
Old 03-07-2010 | 06:32 AM
  #10  
D VTR RIDER's Avatar
Senior Member
Back Marker
 
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 155
From: Sudbury ON
D VTR RIDER is on a distinguished road
Bjorn,

I had the exact same thing on my Storm. It took me 10 minutes to grind out the my pipe with a de-burring tool. In my case, the bike idled much better. I'm not sure how it affected the mid and top end. A dyno run would confirm the difference.
I can't see why Honda would design a bike with 2 exhausts and then restrict one side by 2/3. Therefore my vote goes to poor workmanship.
Old 03-07-2010 | 12:34 PM
  #11  
doomcookie's Avatar
Senior Member
Superstock
 
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 263
doomcookie is on a distinguished road
I don't know more air can be good and bad at the same time. Too much air out mean you loosing compression and not enough air restrict you air flow less power. Funny how things work. Anyone dyno yet? or Feel any different? Faster response?
Old 03-07-2010 | 12:36 PM
  #12  
doomcookie's Avatar
Senior Member
Superstock
 
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 263
doomcookie is on a distinguished road
oh one more thing how your exhaust sound? I like how my two brothers is right now. If this make my bike sound like a straight four then i rather not do it
Old 03-07-2010 | 12:44 PM
  #13  
8541Hawk's Avatar
Banned
MotoGP
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
8541Hawk will become famous soon enough
Originally Posted by doomcookie
I don't know more air can be good and bad at the same time. Too much air out mean you loosing compression and not enough air restrict you air flow less power. Funny how things work. Anyone dyno yet? or Feel any different? Faster response?
Dan Kyle did back to back dyno runs back in '98 and showed that the stock, restricted set up made more power with a stock motor. But like always YMMV.
Old 03-07-2010 | 01:00 PM
  #14  
doomcookie's Avatar
Senior Member
Superstock
 
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 263
doomcookie is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by 8541Hawk
Dan Kyle did back to back dyno runs back in '98 and showed that the stock, restricted set up made more power with a stock motor. But like always YMMV.
Thanks man I think i might just keep mine the way it is. My motor is bone stock
Old 03-07-2010 | 02:33 PM
  #15  
nuhawk's Avatar
Senior Member
MotoGP
 
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,138
From: Austin, Tx
nuhawk is on a distinguished road
Tuning carbs is child's play when compared to exhaust tuning. When I bought mine in came with a TBR on the bike and a stocker on the side. When is came down to which would be my choice for a full JetHot system I chose the stocker.

The TBR was good construction but it was just tubes. Kinda Harley mentality - "we don't give a **** about performance as long as it's loud."

My determination was in a great part due the the wealth of reading in the knowledge base. The shape of the header, the restriction as it passes over the frame member, the 2 into 1 - all there. Even Hawkrider tried it.

This is a battle that I'm going to let other people play. I simply don't have the money or patience of time for ideas the Japs already figured out.

You know? I have one of those Hondas with sudden acceleration problems.
Old 03-07-2010 | 02:50 PM
  #16  
kai ju's Avatar
Senior Member
SuperSport
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 524
kai ju is an unknown quantity at this point
"You know? I have one of those Hondas with sudden acceleration problems"
aka as the twitch of the wrist ?

Back on subject. I took mine out with a hole saw, took all to two minutes...
Didn't notice any difference at that time but later strapped my bike to a friends dyno and got 104 at the rear wheel with K&N filter, stock mains and pilots but with aftermarket needles and RC51 mufflers.

Kai Ju
Old 03-07-2010 | 02:58 PM
  #17  
doomcookie's Avatar
Senior Member
Superstock
 
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 263
doomcookie is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by kai ju
"You know? I have one of those Hondas with sudden acceleration problems"
aka as the twitch of the wrist ?

Back on subject. I took mine out with a hole saw, took all to two minutes...
Didn't notice any difference at that time but later strapped my bike to a friends dyno and got 104 at the rear wheel with K&N filter, stock mains and pilots but with aftermarket needles and RC51 mufflers.

Kai Ju

sorry to be a noob but its that good or bad? sorry i never dyno my bike
Old 03-07-2010 | 03:18 PM
  #18  
VTRsurfer's Avatar
Senior Member
MotoGP
 
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,451
From: San Clemente, CA
VTRsurfer is on a distinguished road
I agree that it's probably intentional. I just went out and started my '05 with stock cans, and there's an equal amount of pressure coming out of both cans from idle on up. And like stated above, it would be much more of a pain in the *** to reweld those pieces back in there.

I learned about exhaust backpressure back in the mid '60s when I had an exhaust cutout welded on the header pipe in front of the muffler on my '59 Chevy 283 with single exhaust. When I uncorked it completely it lost what felt like 50% of low end power, but it sure was loud. Of course I'm not intending to say that there is any shortage of backpressure in a stock SuperHawk exhaust.

As for sudden acceleration, I've experienced it many times on our 3 Toyota 4x4's. It happens every time I floor it. Well, maybe not so much on my wife's old '86 Extra Cab with the 22RE 4 banger.

Last edited by VTRsurfer; 03-07-2010 at 03:21 PM.
Old 03-07-2010 | 03:52 PM
  #19  
nuhawk's Avatar
Senior Member
MotoGP
 
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,138
From: Austin, Tx
nuhawk is on a distinguished road
[quote=VTRsurfer;256592] It happens every time I floor it. quote]

Yeah, mine does the same thing. It's like the floor has a magnet installed in it. I'll have to take it in one of these days. It's especially embarrassing when the light turns green and the idiot in front of me has the reverse problem.
Old 03-11-2010 | 07:24 PM
  #20  
residentg's Avatar
Senior Member
SuperSport
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 667
From: NY State
residentg is on a distinguished road
I just did the intersection mod to my pipes this evening - great tip on the hole-saw method - worked perfectly!

Another place to look for improvement is the opening that attaches to the exhaust manifold. There is excess weld bead that can be ground down, it should allow for better exhaust flow.

Before:

Name:  Headerbeforegrind.jpg
Views: 64
Size:  84.5 KB

After Grind:

Name:  Headeraftergrind1.jpg
Views: 62
Size:  90.7 KB

Last edited by residentg; 03-12-2010 at 09:52 AM.
Old 03-12-2010 | 09:28 AM
  #21  
mboe794's Avatar
Senior Member
SuperSport
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 505
From: Twin Cities
mboe794 is on a distinguished road
Has anyone else modified these welds? I currently have my exhaust system disassembled and I did notice these restrictions. I have previously done the grinding at the intersection but now I am tempted to something here as well. Is there a consensus on whether or not there is any benefit?
Old 03-12-2010 | 09:45 AM
  #22  
residentg's Avatar
Senior Member
SuperSport
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 667
From: NY State
residentg is on a distinguished road
I first learned of this mod from my Honda XR series dirt dikes. Those pipes were half the diameter of the SH pipes. Grinding the bead down on them made a very noticable difference and made them sound nicer, not louder, nicer.

I think that every little bit helps, and this one is free. I used a carbide bit, and then a grind wheel, and then a small wire wheel, on an air die-grinder. I takes a good 30-mins to remove the bead. Still need to do the rear header.

Mobe794 - what did you use to paint your headers and what color did you choose? I was considering doing this myself - any chance of a photo? Engine Ice - I see you are a fellow dirt-biker.

Last edited by residentg; 03-12-2010 at 09:48 AM.
Old 03-12-2010 | 01:43 PM
  #23  
mboe794's Avatar
Senior Member
SuperSport
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 505
From: Twin Cities
mboe794 is on a distinguished road
The paint I've been using is called VHT ceramic header paint. Flat black. It, and other colors, can be found at most auto parts stores. It won't last forever. About two seasons is max for me, but I do a lot of spirited riding. Sun up till sun down on most Saturdays in the summer. Road debris will slowly sand blast away a few areas. I have found it to be a cheap alternative to Jet-hot.

I used to have it wrapped then painted over (guess I should change my signature). I liked the look of that a lot and it held up surprisingly well. The paint soaked into it and gave it a hard shell. I quit with the wrap after dragging the header a few times at the track. I think I got the dragging situation taken care of now but I just haven't felt like messing with the wrap again.

Sorry, it's a no-go on the pics. My computer took a **** a few months ago. I'm using an old relic I found at my parents house. It's abilities a very limited.
Old 03-12-2010 | 03:09 PM
  #24  
LineArrayNut's Avatar
I could ride in
SuperBike
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,729
From: Dayton, TN
LineArrayNut is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by VTRsurfer
I agree that it's probably intentional. I just went out and started my '05 with stock cans, and there's an equal amount of pressure coming out of both cans from idle on up.

I ground mine out when I switched to slipons, so its not a clear cut case, but the slip ons were better and the left sure as heck has alot more gas out of it than the right now...
Old 03-13-2010 | 08:07 PM
  #25  
JamieDaugherty's Avatar
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,858
From: Fort Wayne, IN
JamieDaugherty is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by LineArrayNut
I ground mine out when I switched to slipons, so its not a clear cut case, but the slip ons were better and the left sure as heck has alot more gas out of it than the right now...

Yeah, but rev it up a little and you'll see that the flow evens out quite a bit. I have to believe that under load/rpm/throttle that the flow is pretty close to the same with the stock header. Honda knows what they are doing and this is not coincidence, the design is meant to be that way.
Old 03-13-2010 | 09:45 PM
  #26  
VTS's Avatar
VTS
OCMD honorary member
Superstock
 
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 252
From: Olympia, WA
VTS is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by JamieDaugherty
Yeah, but rev it up a little and you'll see that the flow evens out quite a bit. I have to believe that under load/rpm/throttle that the flow is pretty close to the same with the stock header. Honda knows what they are doing and this is not coincidence, the design is meant to be that way.
+1
Old 03-14-2010 | 05:11 AM
  #27  
residentg's Avatar
Senior Member
SuperSport
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 667
From: NY State
residentg is on a distinguished road
Well, it sure seems strange to me. I think that someone at Honda messed up, and the decision not to address it was based on profits, or maybe it was done to even out left / right exhaust flow so that customers would not complain and cost Honda money to address post production. Having 2 mufflers is cosmetic afterall.

But lets say that it was intentional. It would have been intentional for the stock mufflers, not free flow aftermarket exhausts like many of us have installed. My vote is to remove the blockage at the intersection, and remove the excess weld bead. Besides, I already did both, so I cannot go back JB
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Big Shepp
Everything Else
3
09-26-2011 12:41 PM
8541Hawk
Everything Else
0
01-20-2011 05:56 PM
spEEdfrEEk
Everything Else
1
08-13-2004 11:53 AM




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:30 AM.


Top

© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands



When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.