engine casting repair
07-27-2010 | 10:59 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 805
From: Delmar NY
engine casting repair
I made a costly error sunday. I was installing my Factory +4 advancer. i put in a case bolt to hold the split gear together, but one spring came loose anyway. I thought i could get the spring back but needed to turn the crank a bit.
I forgot about the length of the bolt. i touched the starter and the bolt hit the waterpump gear chain and broke out the bottom of the machined boss that holds the gear.
I think the pics show it - one has a hose clamp to show the "chunk" fits back in.
What are my options? Could JB weld work? maybe with a machined collar?
I forgot about the length of the bolt. i touched the starter and the bolt hit the waterpump gear chain and broke out the bottom of the machined boss that holds the gear.
I think the pics show it - one has a hose clamp to show the "chunk" fits back in.
What are my options? Could JB weld work? maybe with a machined collar?
07-27-2010 | 11:19 AM
#2
Banned
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
That is some bad news.... I'm not sure I would trust JB weld in that application. Then again, I can't think of an easy way to fix that either.
It is a rather tough way to learn that you should always turn a engine over by hand when you are working on it.
Wish I had an answer for you.
It is a rather tough way to learn that you should always turn a engine over by hand when you are working on it.
Wish I had an answer for you.
07-27-2010 | 11:29 AM
#3
ride it out
SuperSport
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 745
From: NH
that does not look good, I personally wouldn't use jb weld or anything like that, it needs to be remachined or you need a new casing. a machined metal color may work but whatever shaft sits on the inside of that opening isn't going to like it...
07-27-2010 | 12:37 PM
#4
ole dirty bastard
SuperSport
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 975
From: my house
I made a costly error sunday. I was installing my Factory +4 advancer. i put in a case bolt to hold the split gear together, but one spring came loose anyway. I thought i could get the spring back but needed to turn the crank a bit.
I forgot about the length of the bolt. i touched the starter and the bolt hit the waterpump gear chain and broke out the bottom of the machined boss that holds the gear.
I think the pics show it - one has a hose clamp to show the "chunk" fits back in.
What are my options? Could JB weld work? maybe with a machined collar?
I forgot about the length of the bolt. i touched the starter and the bolt hit the waterpump gear chain and broke out the bottom of the machined boss that holds the gear.
I think the pics show it - one has a hose clamp to show the "chunk" fits back in.
What are my options? Could JB weld work? maybe with a machined collar?
sorry dude,find a used engine somewhere.
thats done.
hey guys how about an electric water pump?
that gear drives the water pump correct?
Last edited by hawxter996; 07-27-2010 at 04:01 PM.
07-27-2010 | 01:38 PM
#5
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MotoGP
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,402
From: Kempner, TX
I don’t have an answer you want to hear...
IF you could do all work in house or no cost/ very low cost... it might be worth it to disassemble the motor, weld the boss back up, machine the Boss back in to the required profile, and re assemble the motor..
If you cannot do that for very cheap.. Your next cheapest solution is to find a cheap used motor, say one with a trashed head.... and use the case from that.
Last in the cheap solutions is a whole running used motor.
IF you could do all work in house or no cost/ very low cost... it might be worth it to disassemble the motor, weld the boss back up, machine the Boss back in to the required profile, and re assemble the motor..
If you cannot do that for very cheap.. Your next cheapest solution is to find a cheap used motor, say one with a trashed head.... and use the case from that.
Last in the cheap solutions is a whole running used motor.
07-28-2010 | 06:27 AM
#8
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SuperSport
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From: Delmar NY
I appreciate the feed back guys - I think I needed a dose of reality because I really was considering the collar/JB weld route.
I have one other off the wall thought - not too long ago someone here mentioned the possibility of an electric water pump. The boss i broke holds the water pump gear. Perhaps i just remove that gear and go electric. I've seen VW (Bosch) water pumps on Ebay.
This is not a complete though yet, but what do you all think?
I have one other off the wall thought - not too long ago someone here mentioned the possibility of an electric water pump. The boss i broke holds the water pump gear. Perhaps i just remove that gear and go electric. I've seen VW (Bosch) water pumps on Ebay.
This is not a complete though yet, but what do you all think?
07-28-2010 | 06:53 AM
#9
Administrator
MotoGP
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,402
From: Kempner, TX
I appreciate the feed back guys - I think I needed a dose of reality because I really was considering the collar/JB weld route.
I have one other off the wall thought - not too long ago someone here mentioned the possibility of an electric water pump. The boss i broke holds the water pump gear. Perhaps i just remove that gear and go electric. I've seen VW (Bosch) water pumps on Ebay.
This is not a complete though yet, but what do you all think?
I have one other off the wall thought - not too long ago someone here mentioned the possibility of an electric water pump. The boss i broke holds the water pump gear. Perhaps i just remove that gear and go electric. I've seen VW (Bosch) water pumps on Ebay.
This is not a complete though yet, but what do you all think?
Recommendation
07-28-2010 | 06:58 AM
#10
ole dirty bastard
SuperSport
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 975
From: my house
I appreciate the feed back guys - I think I needed a dose of reality because I really was considering the collar/JB weld route.
I have one other off the wall thought - not too long ago someone here mentioned the possibility of an electric water pump. The boss i broke holds the water pump gear. Perhaps i just remove that gear and go electric. I've seen VW (Bosch) water pumps on Ebay.
This is not a complete though yet, but what do you all think?
I have one other off the wall thought - not too long ago someone here mentioned the possibility of an electric water pump. The boss i broke holds the water pump gear. Perhaps i just remove that gear and go electric. I've seen VW (Bosch) water pumps on Ebay.
This is not a complete though yet, but what do you all think?
07-28-2010 | 07:00 AM
#11
ride it out
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 745
From: NH
I absolutely believe you could use an electric water pump. However the chain or gear driven one whatever it is that we have in our bike is dependent on RPM. You could easily find an electric one that changes velocity dependent on battery voltage (higher RPM = higher voltage = higher flow). Not sure if the Bosch operates like that but most electric motors run stead independent of a range of voltage. There are the smaller ones out there that run on 12V so giving them ~13.5V may increase their speed, but if it's going to always be running then you may not even need to worry about this at all. I definitely believe this wouldn't be too hard at all.
07-28-2010 | 07:23 AM
#12
ole dirty bastard
SuperSport
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 975
From: my house
I absolutely believe you could use an electric water pump. However the chain or gear driven one whatever it is that we have in our bike is dependent on RPM. You could easily find an electric one that changes velocity dependent on battery voltage (higher RPM = higher voltage = higher flow). Not sure if the Bosch operates like that but most electric motors run stead independent of a range of voltage. There are the smaller ones out there that run on 12V so giving them ~13.5V may increase their speed, but if it's going to always be running then you may not even need to worry about this at all. I definitely believe this wouldn't be too hard at all.
it will just be more efficient,may lower temps a few degrees.
07-28-2010 | 07:56 AM
#13
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 320
I know absolutely nothing about water pumps, so I'd really like to hear if an electric one would work. Why wouldn't it work? Even with constant voltage going to it? It should work as long as it pumps enough water, and I'd guess that a car pump would. I'd assume it pumps more water than the stock VTR pump.
The charging system should be able to handle it just fine, and it might even take some strain off of the notorious R/R.
The charging system should be able to handle it just fine, and it might even take some strain off of the notorious R/R.
07-28-2010 | 08:19 AM
#14
ride it out
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Posts: 745
From: NH
There is no reason it wouldn't work, you just need to find a place to mount it with hoses routed properly, and take into consideration the location of the pump as well as its flow rating. I've really only seen big bulky car ones, anyone have a link for one that may be realistic to put in a bike, size-wise?
07-28-2010 | 11:54 AM
#15
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SuperSport
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From: Delmar NY
Thanks everyone for the feed back. I've started to look around and it is seeming quite feasable. There are several electric pumps made that might work - infact there is one made as a direct performance upgrade for Haybusa http://www.powerhousemc.com/ - a bit pricy though.
http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electr...1-details.aspx
This one looks like it could work - any Ausies have a comment on them?
I'm thinking I could mount this where the evap canister goes on a Cal bike and either cap off or fab a block off plate for the mech water pump.
If anyone else has leads on an electric pump or where to mount it, please serve them up
http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electr...1-details.aspx
This one looks like it could work - any Ausies have a comment on them?
I'm thinking I could mount this where the evap canister goes on a Cal bike and either cap off or fab a block off plate for the mech water pump.
If anyone else has leads on an electric pump or where to mount it, please serve them up
Last edited by Stevebis1; 07-28-2010 at 12:03 PM.
07-28-2010 | 12:02 PM
#16
ride it out
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Posts: 745
From: NH
Whoa those both look like nice products, and yes to expensive on that first one. As for the second one, it is very similar to the aftercooler pump I have for my s/c car that flows coolant, and it isn't expensive at all. Looks like a nice product being magnetically driven and all, mounting will be your only concern, just make sure you mount it to flow coolant in the right direction.
07-28-2010 | 01:17 PM
#17
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 266
From: Westchester Co. NY
Is this stuff too good to be true? The videos make it look all too simple to repair aluminum.
http://www.aluminumrepair.com/shoppi...0&cat=HTS-2000
http://www.aluminumrepair.com/shoppi...0&cat=HTS-2000
07-28-2010 | 01:23 PM
#18
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MotoGP
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From: Lake View Terrace, CA
Is this stuff too good to be true? The videos make it look all too simple to repair aluminum.
http://www.aluminumrepair.com/shoppi...0&cat=HTS-2000
http://www.aluminumrepair.com/shoppi...0&cat=HTS-2000
Never seen the stuff but remember you are trying to repair Al that has been soaked in oil so that adds a whole new level of difficulty to any repair attempt.
07-28-2010 | 02:23 PM
#20
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
Is this stuff too good to be true? The videos make it look all too simple to repair aluminum.
http://www.aluminumrepair.com/shoppi...0&cat=HTS-2000
http://www.aluminumrepair.com/shoppi...0&cat=HTS-2000
As for the repair... Well I think the electric pump is proably going to work if you can find one that flows the same amount... Or that is adjustable... Because if you have to much flow, you kill the thermal efficiency of the radiators... And that's bad...
But much less work with a running motor... Or taking nothings and rebuilding it...
But I like the idea of you beta testing the waterpump idea for us, even though I'm not too thrilled about the reason for the beta test...
07-28-2010 | 03:07 PM
#21
Destructive Tester
Superstock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 263
From: N.E. oHIo
The Aussie electric pump would 'prolly work well if you get the mounting sorted.....nice little unit.
Short answer, YES.
Rex
07-28-2010 | 05:13 PM
#22
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MotoGP
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,132
From: Phoenix, AZ
Aluminum brazing has it's place, but probably not in this one.
http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/...zing-rods.html
http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/...zing-rods.html
07-28-2010 | 05:36 PM
#23
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
But it does nothing to regulate the flow or pressure once on... And if you push hot coolant through the radiators to fast it will not cool down efficiently and in the end is doesn't help that the thermostat does it's job... Since the flow is on and the radiators isn't cooling properly, you still potentially end up with an overheating bike... So I still say a pump giving reasonaly the same performance as the mechanical waterpump at normal operating RPM is a good idea...
Now what RPM/flow numbers to shoot for? Haven't got the foggiest, but more isn't neccesarily better...
07-28-2010 | 06:45 PM
#24
racer44
Squid
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 18
From: Illinois
The aluminum brazing is not actually welding anything together. It is adding a melted rod to the metal and joining the two pieces without actually melting them. So when you machine the boss it will break. I have welded and do a lot of welding on cases for motorcycles in competition. As far as the oil being an issue, it will burn out as long as you preheat then postheat. The preheating to a temp of 1200 degrees for and postheat down to about 400 degrees should and will rid any impurities in the cast. Although cast is hard to weld and before you get the electric water pump I would attempt to weld it or in your case have it welded. I think if you bring the bike to a fab shop you might be suprised what they can do.
07-28-2010 | 08:07 PM
#25
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,611
From: Belgium, WI
ELECTRIC PUMP!!!! do it and give results. What is the worst that can happen, blown motor? You are already sitting with blown cases. Give it hell.
As for a repair, you could machine that portion down and insert a piloted (shoulder) piece that you have machined. This is barring you skills and abilities. If this is beyond you, go water pump.
As for a repair, you could machine that portion down and insert a piloted (shoulder) piece that you have machined. This is barring you skills and abilities. If this is beyond you, go water pump.
07-28-2010 | 09:07 PM
#26
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SuperSport
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From: Delmar NY
What's the worse that can happen? Well I did destoy my engine trying to put in an advancer...
The more I search, the more I believe the electric pump is the way to go. Plus it is pretty hard to do something on this forum that no one ever has before - time to get started on my legacy.
The Davies-Craig seems to be highly recommended; so far I think the model EBP looks like the ticket. I'v been searching the web and haven't found any specific flow rate data for the standard mechanical pump. The pump Powerhouse sells for the Haybusa specs 5 gpm but gives no pump curves to compare. It doesn't appear to come with a temp pump controller.
The Davies-Craig EBP is only 4 GPM - is that enough? Dunno...
Also with two radiators and carb heat lines the question of where to put this pump gets complicated. At least it is small.
I could put it in the top hose between the radiators, but I'd have to pull the thermostat to get any flow on startup. Plus I think the carb heater flow would be reversed and the bypass wouldn't work at all. Without the temp controller bike might not warm up.
The other spot I've identified is just before the thermostat but I'd have to plumb a Y before and after the pump, plus it is pretty tight in there. At least in that configuration i think the thermostat would do its job and allow the bypass to work for warm up.
Think I'll sleep on this for now maybe order up the pump tomorrow...
The more I search, the more I believe the electric pump is the way to go. Plus it is pretty hard to do something on this forum that no one ever has before - time to get started on my legacy.
The Davies-Craig seems to be highly recommended; so far I think the model EBP looks like the ticket. I'v been searching the web and haven't found any specific flow rate data for the standard mechanical pump. The pump Powerhouse sells for the Haybusa specs 5 gpm but gives no pump curves to compare. It doesn't appear to come with a temp pump controller.
The Davies-Craig EBP is only 4 GPM - is that enough? Dunno...
Also with two radiators and carb heat lines the question of where to put this pump gets complicated. At least it is small.
I could put it in the top hose between the radiators, but I'd have to pull the thermostat to get any flow on startup. Plus I think the carb heater flow would be reversed and the bypass wouldn't work at all. Without the temp controller bike might not warm up.
The other spot I've identified is just before the thermostat but I'd have to plumb a Y before and after the pump, plus it is pretty tight in there. At least in that configuration i think the thermostat would do its job and allow the bypass to work for warm up.
Think I'll sleep on this for now maybe order up the pump tomorrow...
07-28-2010 | 09:34 PM
#28
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MotoGP
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,132
From: Phoenix, AZ
http://www.dccontrol.com/gncooling.htm
As you increase the fluid velocity the improvement in cooling that you get becomes less and less till it basically does no good to go any faster, but it never actually decreases other than the heat added by the effort to pump the fluid.
07-28-2010 | 09:44 PM
#29
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SuperBike
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,611
From: Belgium, WI
Delta T is the important factor. The efficiency of the cooling unit is greatest at the highest temperature difference. If you move the coolant really slow, it will have a lower delta T as the temperature drops. If you move it faster, it will not cool down as far as it goes through the radiator, but the temperature difference across the radiator will be smaller (and therefore slightly more efficient than a high gradient). Pumping losses are the problem with a higher velocity. You want to move it as slow as possible without causing large temperature gradients within the engine. pump away, and let us know how it works.
And, If it were my bike, I wouldnt worry to much about GPM, temperature gradients, and the such until I was actually up and running (trial and error).
And, If it were my bike, I wouldnt worry to much about GPM, temperature gradients, and the such until I was actually up and running (trial and error).
