Edumacate me! Suspension on a budget.
07-30-2012 | 09:34 AM
#4
Banned
MotoGP
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Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
The amount of the budget does make a difference.
Though the quick list would be:
Fork springs & valves
Fork brace
Have Jamie build you a rear shock.
With your weight the front end is the most important.
Though the quick list would be:
Fork springs & valves
Fork brace
Have Jamie build you a rear shock.
With your weight the front end is the most important.
07-30-2012 | 09:47 AM
#5
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,053
From: NYC
Here is the EXTREME budget way to do it. (racer between races style). Open the fork tops one at a time and add a couple ounces of 30wt fork oil to each, this will help it dampen more through the stroke.
Then cut 15mm spacers out of pvc pipe, cut them in half and use them to add preload. (back off the adjusters all the way to install).
This transformed my bike until I was able to buy some springs (sonic are the best priced) and gold valves.
You can do all this with the forks still on the bike & then use the preload adjusters to adjust stiffness.
(the spacers go under the dimpled washers and above the springs)
Then cut 15mm spacers out of pvc pipe, cut them in half and use them to add preload. (back off the adjusters all the way to install).
This transformed my bike until I was able to buy some springs (sonic are the best priced) and gold valves.
You can do all this with the forks still on the bike & then use the preload adjusters to adjust stiffness.
(the spacers go under the dimpled washers and above the springs)
07-30-2012 | 01:01 PM
#6
Thread Starter
New Hawk Rider
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 258
From: Ventura Co. SoCAL
Thanks for all the advice. As far as budget, I have just started looking into this and researching. The price I saw on the Ohlins rear shock made this seem like it would be a very pricey job to do a complete set up. I have never really looked into suspension before so I thought I would gather ideas first. I was wondering if this could be done for under $500 or if the job would be over $1000. If I could pull this off for under a few hundred it may be something to throw on the list as future projects.
I'm not looking for any type of race set up, just something more geared to my weight and height (6'4")
I'm not looking for any type of race set up, just something more geared to my weight and height (6'4")
Last edited by eersfanpilot; 07-30-2012 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Forgot the budget
07-30-2012 | 01:36 PM
#7
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,082
From: Menifee, CA
Go to www.daughertymotorsports.com , Jamie can fix you front and rear for @ $600 total and it would be a significant performance upgrade over stock. If you want to do the fork springs only it would be closer to $400 and still gets you a new rear shock.
07-30-2012 | 01:37 PM
#8
the boss
SuperBike
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,182
From: largo,fl
ok,with that being said
sonic springs for your weight,80 to 90.
can get racetech springs for good price if you look on amazon.com,got mine for 90 shipped brand new.
racetech compression valve,or could buy a set off of jamie daughtery for a little cheaper.
can be anywhere from 100 to 140.if you go with racetech,check on amazon.com,again the cheapest,i saved 30 on mine.
new fork oil,13 to 20 at the most.
new fork seals,30 or so from allballs bearings.
new head bearings,30 to 40
this is just for the front end,a good rear shock at the cheapest with jamie is around 300.
so with your budget,you can get your front end right the first time and still have money out of that 500.
list
springs
compression valve
fork oil
fork seals
head bearings
fork bushings=maybe
sonic springs for your weight,80 to 90.
can get racetech springs for good price if you look on amazon.com,got mine for 90 shipped brand new.
racetech compression valve,or could buy a set off of jamie daughtery for a little cheaper.
can be anywhere from 100 to 140.if you go with racetech,check on amazon.com,again the cheapest,i saved 30 on mine.
new fork oil,13 to 20 at the most.
new fork seals,30 or so from allballs bearings.
new head bearings,30 to 40
this is just for the front end,a good rear shock at the cheapest with jamie is around 300.
so with your budget,you can get your front end right the first time and still have money out of that 500.
list
springs
compression valve
fork oil
fork seals
head bearings
fork bushings=maybe
07-30-2012 | 02:01 PM
#10
When in doubt, C4
Squid
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 72
From: Venice, FL
Go to www.daughertymotorsports.com , Jamie can fix you front and rear for @ 600 total and it would be a significant performance upgrade over stock. If you want to do the fork springs only it would be closer to $400 and still gets you a new rear shock.
^^ +1. Up your total budget $100 and go with Jamie to get front and rear. I did springs first, and then I finally ordered up a shock from Jamie. Night and day difference over what my bike used to be with the shock alone. Jamie will spring it for your weight, and will set it up for your riding style.
07-30-2012 | 10:09 PM
#13
Thread Starter
New Hawk Rider
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 258
From: Ventura Co. SoCAL
Thanks everyone! Smokinjoe, I may take your advice and experiment with that to start just to get a feel for how it will change things then decide how much more I want to go down this road.
8541Hawk. Thanks man. Now that you are in my area we should get a ride together sometime. I would love to have you ride my SH and give it a good look over.
8541Hawk. Thanks man. Now that you are in my area we should get a ride together sometime. I would love to have you ride my SH and give it a good look over.
07-31-2012 | 11:44 AM
#14
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,082
From: Menifee, CA
Save yourself
Thanks everyone! Smokinjoe, I may take your advice and experiment with that to start just to get a feel for how it will change things then decide how much more I want to go down this road.
8541Hawk. Thanks man. Now that you are in my area we should get a ride together sometime. I would love to have you ride my SH and give it a good look over.
8541Hawk. Thanks man. Now that you are in my area we should get a ride together sometime. I would love to have you ride my SH and give it a good look over.
07-31-2012 | 11:52 AM
#15
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
08-22-2012 | 09:12 AM
#17
DudimusMaximus
Squid
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 8
From: San Diego
as a 240 rider with a newly acquired 98 Superhawk, I read the advice that the first mod recommended to the Hawks for larger riders is to the suspension. In this thread it seems fairly straightforward to replace the front springs and oil first if on budget and then the rears, and that the basic suspension upgrade to support my weight should be around 600 dollars. That would be great except I thought I read somewhere else on this forum that the springs can not be changed out independently from other changes that need to be done to the shocks? Sorry I can not be more precise to what was said in that thead, but it made sense. I guess my question is can a simple spring change out to support my weight be done to the hawk or are there other modifications to the shocks and costs not accounted for in the 600 dollar cost mentioned in this thread?
Thanks
Scott
Thanks
Scott
08-22-2012 | 09:25 AM
#18
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,053
From: NYC
In my post I mentioned the even cheaper way to add preload to the springs. The stock shock is sprung to stiff but for you thats less of an issue. The fork will bottom and sag & thats your first target. Some heavier oil would also help damping. Check out my post. (add 3/4in heavy oil and 15mm spacers from pvc)
08-22-2012 | 09:45 AM
#19
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
as a 240 rider with a newly acquired 98 Superhawk, I read the advice that the first mod recommended to the Hawks for larger riders is to the suspension. In this thread it seems fairly straightforward to replace the front springs and oil first if on budget and then the rears, and that the basic suspension upgrade to support my weight should be around 600 dollars. That would be great except I thought I read somewhere else on this forum that the springs can not be changed out independently from other changes that need to be done to the shocks? Sorry I can not be more precise to what was said in that thead, but it made sense. I guess my question is can a simple spring change out to support my weight be done to the hawk or are there other modifications to the shocks and costs not accounted for in the 600 dollar cost mentioned in this thread?
Thanks
Scott
Thanks
Scott
Well, theres the cheap way, which is to simply swap the springs, or add spacers and thicker oil like suggested...
That means the springs will not sag down as much, but you aren't getting the correct damping for the stroke, which means the spring act similar to a pogo stick... It's not too noticable if you just add a spacer, or a slightly heavier spring, and a small amount of heavier oil, or a slight increase in oilweight of the total oil, will slow down the oilflow and help...
But if you go to heavy with the oil, or in your case, add correct springs for 240, then you are way, way out from what the shims and valves inside are meant to cope with, and you will get the full "pogo effect"... And going to heavy weight oil, can produce "oil lock", ie the oil cannot move fast enough to keep up with the fork movement... That's usually very painfull, as the fork basically locks solid for a millisecond, which is quite enough to fling you at the scenery as the fork isn't moving any way at all, like a solid metal pipe...
But having Jamie Daugherty, or Hawkrider or any reputable suspension shop fix the front fork for you means that they swap the spring, and swap the shims and valves to match the new spring... Ie factored into that budget of $600 as far as I know... That way you get the correct suspension, with correct spring AND damping...
08-22-2012 | 11:28 AM
#20
Banned
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
Well, theres the cheap way, which is to simply swap the springs, or add spacers and thicker oil like suggested...
That means the springs will not sag down as much, but you aren't getting the correct damping for the stroke, which means the spring act similar to a pogo stick... It's not too noticable if you just add a spacer, or a slightly heavier spring, and a small amount of heavier oil, or a slight increase in oilweight of the total oil, will slow down the oilflow and help...
But if you go to heavy with the oil, or in your case, add correct springs for 240, then you are way, way out from what the shims and valves inside are meant to cope with, and you will get the full "pogo effect"... And going to heavy weight oil, can produce "oil lock", ie the oil cannot move fast enough to keep up with the fork movement... That's usually very painfull, as the fork basically locks solid for a millisecond, which is quite enough to fling you at the scenery as the fork isn't moving any way at all, like a solid metal pipe...
But having Jamie Daugherty, or Hawkrider or any reputable suspension shop fix the front fork for you means that they swap the spring, and swap the shims and valves to match the new spring... Ie factored into that budget of $600 as far as I know... That way you get the correct suspension, with correct spring AND damping...
That means the springs will not sag down as much, but you aren't getting the correct damping for the stroke, which means the spring act similar to a pogo stick... It's not too noticable if you just add a spacer, or a slightly heavier spring, and a small amount of heavier oil, or a slight increase in oilweight of the total oil, will slow down the oilflow and help...
But if you go to heavy with the oil, or in your case, add correct springs for 240, then you are way, way out from what the shims and valves inside are meant to cope with, and you will get the full "pogo effect"... And going to heavy weight oil, can produce "oil lock", ie the oil cannot move fast enough to keep up with the fork movement... That's usually very painfull, as the fork basically locks solid for a millisecond, which is quite enough to fling you at the scenery as the fork isn't moving any way at all, like a solid metal pipe...
But having Jamie Daugherty, or Hawkrider or any reputable suspension shop fix the front fork for you means that they swap the spring, and swap the shims and valves to match the new spring... Ie factored into that budget of $600 as far as I know... That way you get the correct suspension, with correct spring AND damping...
The best thing you can ever do to the bike is get the suspension set up correctly.
IMHO it doesn't matter how good you are, how much power you have or how good your brakes are, if the tires are not on the road.
So not a place to go cheap. It can be done on a budget but it does need to be done if you ever want the bike to work correctly.
I would say contact the members listed in Tweety's post and also ask Jamie about either re-working the stock shock or one of his shock conversions. Then the bike will actually work.
08-22-2012 | 11:34 AM
#21
DudimusMaximus
Squid
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 8
From: San Diego
Tweety,Thanks for the response, that put it all together for me...I had heard someone say around $1800 to do the suspension correctly for this bike considering my size and now it makes sense with you explanation in hand (to avoid the "pogo stick effect"). I have really enjoyed this bike so far and can imagine the effect with the suspension done right.
Thanks
Scott
Thanks
Scott
08-22-2012 | 03:58 PM
#22
Senior Member
Superstock
Superstock
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 321
FWIW, the fork needs it much more than the shock. @ 240 the shock will be too soft but it is still worthwhile to do the fork. Consider how many sport bikes are ridden by people of all different sizes with no changes to the suspension.
As mentioned earlier, if you're going to go to the trouble of taking the fork off, send it to Jamie Daugherty. He'll get it dialed for a marginally higher price then just the parts would cost you. Never heard anything but glowing reviews about his work and hope to send him some fork legs this winter myself.
As mentioned earlier, if you're going to go to the trouble of taking the fork off, send it to Jamie Daugherty. He'll get it dialed for a marginally higher price then just the parts would cost you. Never heard anything but glowing reviews about his work and hope to send him some fork legs this winter myself.
08-26-2012 | 11:24 AM
#23
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,858
From: Fort Wayne, IN
Thanks for the kind words guys!
Doing suspension on a budget is a real challenge, especially for a bike like the SuperHawk. You really need to break it down to the fundamental problems first. Any good suspension setup requires the correct spring rates to be used. For the VTR the fork springs are much worse than the shock spring, but in the end both would need changed. Springs are not very expensive by themselves and can make an improvement on an otherwise stock suspension. The downside is upgraded springs will exaggerate the VTR's biggest problem - the valving. A rule that I like to remind people of is that springs just hold up the weight, but it's the damping that generates the handling performance of the motorcycle.
If you need some additional details on how to approach getting your bike setup properly please feel free to shoot me a call or email. I'll be happy to help in any way I can!
Doing suspension on a budget is a real challenge, especially for a bike like the SuperHawk. You really need to break it down to the fundamental problems first. Any good suspension setup requires the correct spring rates to be used. For the VTR the fork springs are much worse than the shock spring, but in the end both would need changed. Springs are not very expensive by themselves and can make an improvement on an otherwise stock suspension. The downside is upgraded springs will exaggerate the VTR's biggest problem - the valving. A rule that I like to remind people of is that springs just hold up the weight, but it's the damping that generates the handling performance of the motorcycle.
If you need some additional details on how to approach getting your bike setup properly please feel free to shoot me a call or email. I'll be happy to help in any way I can!
08-26-2012 | 11:31 AM
#24
Well take off, eh.
SuperBike
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,204
From: QC, Canada
A rule that I like to remind people of is that springs just hold up the weight, but it's the damping that generates the handling performance of the motorcycle.
If you need some additional details on how to approach getting your bike setup properly please feel free to shoot me a call or email. I'll be happy to help in any way I can!
If you need some additional details on how to approach getting your bike setup properly please feel free to shoot me a call or email. I'll be happy to help in any way I can!
08-26-2012 | 11:57 AM
#25
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,858
From: Fort Wayne, IN
That's the catch-22: the springs aren't the biggest problem but they are needed for the valving to work properly. Just keep in mind that if you change just the springs it shouldn't be where you STOP but rather where you START. The ultimate goal should be a setup that includes both springs and valving upgrades.
08-26-2012 | 02:59 PM
#26
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SuperSport
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 582
From: Santa Fe, New Mexico
That's the catch-22: the springs aren't the biggest problem but they are needed for the valving to work properly. Just keep in mind that if you change just the springs it shouldn't be where you STOP but rather where you START. The ultimate goal should be a setup that includes both springs and valving upgrades.
08-26-2012 | 05:43 PM
#27
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,858
From: Fort Wayne, IN
I am reading and following with great interest. I am also 165-175 and am on a stock 2002 VTR. I plan on getting Jamie to do the work but for now I have a few other challenges that require money. I want to set this suspension up as well as it can be done until I spring for the upgrade. From what I've read, the shock spring may be too stiff for the front. So the idea is to soften the shock spring and push up the damping while stiffening the front and setting the damping to near all the way? Add a little 30wt oil to the forks and a spacer for preload. I, too need a little help setting up my bike for a month or two 'til I can go for he upgrade.
I wouldn't soften the rear spring - just because it's not matched to the front doesn't mean it's too heavy. The stock spring on the VTR shock is good for about a 150-185lb rider weight with the correct preload.
The valving on both ends has the same fundamental problem - too much high speed and too little low speed damping. The excessive high speed damping generates the harsh feeling and lack of traction. Too little low speed doesn't give the rider enough feedback and creates an overall lack of control. Adding some thick fluid in the forks is a band-aid at best. In reality you are trading a slight improvement in one area while making another area even worse. In this case the 30w fluid would give you a bit (not much, really) more low speed but would make the excessive high speed even more excessive. You are really better off running lighter fluid and cranking the external adjustment all of the way in. I suggest Honda Pro Oils 5w fluid. That's about the best $10 upgrade you can make to the front, but don't expect a miracle!
08-26-2012 | 07:23 PM
#28
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 582
From: Santa Fe, New Mexico
I wouldn't soften the rear spring - just because it's not matched to the front doesn't mean it's too heavy. The stock spring on the VTR shock is good for about a 150-185lb rider weight with the correct preload.
The valving on both ends has the same fundamental problem - too much high speed and too little low speed damping. The excessive high speed damping generates the harsh feeling and lack of traction. Too little low speed doesn't give the rider enough feedback and creates an overall lack of control. Adding some thick fluid in the forks is a band-aid at best. In reality you are trading a slight improvement in one area while making another area even worse. In this case the 30w fluid would give you a bit (not much, really) more low speed but would make the excessive high speed even more excessive. You are really better off running lighter fluid and cranking the external adjustment all of the way in. I suggest Honda Pro Oils 5w fluid. That's about the best $10 upgrade you can make to the front, but don't expect a miracle!
The valving on both ends has the same fundamental problem - too much high speed and too little low speed damping. The excessive high speed damping generates the harsh feeling and lack of traction. Too little low speed doesn't give the rider enough feedback and creates an overall lack of control. Adding some thick fluid in the forks is a band-aid at best. In reality you are trading a slight improvement in one area while making another area even worse. In this case the 30w fluid would give you a bit (not much, really) more low speed but would make the excessive high speed even more excessive. You are really better off running lighter fluid and cranking the external adjustment all of the way in. I suggest Honda Pro Oils 5w fluid. That's about the best $10 upgrade you can make to the front, but don't expect a miracle!
08-26-2012 | 09:05 PM
#29
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,082
From: Menifee, CA
You might want to try Dan Kyle or Lindemann Engineering. Both are in CA but I think they will cost you more than Jamie even including shipping both ways. Cost of living in CA vs Indiana and overhead costs etc.
08-26-2012 | 09:09 PM
#30
Banned
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
