Bike doesn't want to run after new valves
10-04-2013 | 07:50 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 458
From: Rome, GA
Bike doesn't want to run after new valves
I'm having some issues after doing the valves in my rear cylinder. For those that don't know I had an issue when installing new cam chain tensioners that resulted in the rear cylinder eating the exhaust valves.
I removed the head and took it to a machine shop to have the valves done right. Dropped the head back in the bike with a new head gasket, torqued to spec. Set cam timing properly according to manual, vales adjusted to spec, tightened tensioner to spec, I didn't do plugs yet (I know I had it all apart, I'm buying plugs and vacuum gauges today to do a sync, I just forgot them when I was out yesterday and planned to do them)
The bike idles fine, but it just doesn't want to take any throttle (It does seem to run better on choke however). The rear cylinder header is notably colder than the front. Going down the driveway it skips and pops and gets very angry. It seems alright at first, its almost like its running out of fuel almost. I will update after plugs and a carb sync. Just wondering if maybe there is something else I missed (yes I turned the fuel back on and hooked all the hoses up to the tank correctly. However I do have a mystery hose on the right side of the bike. Its a drain hose I know that much. I thought originally that it was a drain for the airbox but I cant figure out where it goes. I know for a fact its one of the overflow hoses that hangs off the bottom of the bike, just dont know which one I missed, its the only mystery hose I have)
I removed the head and took it to a machine shop to have the valves done right. Dropped the head back in the bike with a new head gasket, torqued to spec. Set cam timing properly according to manual, vales adjusted to spec, tightened tensioner to spec, I didn't do plugs yet (I know I had it all apart, I'm buying plugs and vacuum gauges today to do a sync, I just forgot them when I was out yesterday and planned to do them)
The bike idles fine, but it just doesn't want to take any throttle (It does seem to run better on choke however). The rear cylinder header is notably colder than the front. Going down the driveway it skips and pops and gets very angry. It seems alright at first, its almost like its running out of fuel almost. I will update after plugs and a carb sync. Just wondering if maybe there is something else I missed (yes I turned the fuel back on and hooked all the hoses up to the tank correctly. However I do have a mystery hose on the right side of the bike. Its a drain hose I know that much. I thought originally that it was a drain for the airbox but I cant figure out where it goes. I know for a fact its one of the overflow hoses that hangs off the bottom of the bike, just dont know which one I missed, its the only mystery hose I have)
10-04-2013 | 08:41 AM
#3
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,707
From: Essex, UK
What manual are you using? - The Haynes manual has setting up the timing wrong for the VTR, if they got that in turn from the factory manual.... Best follow the guide in the workshop section here for doing the MCCTs.
If its an overflow/drain pipe then it should connect to one of the matching size outlets (pair of) on the bottom of the tank. Are you absolutely certain it's not a vacuum pipe that should fit behind the petcock.
If its an overflow/drain pipe then it should connect to one of the matching size outlets (pair of) on the bottom of the tank. Are you absolutely certain it's not a vacuum pipe that should fit behind the petcock.
10-04-2013 | 09:06 AM
#4
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,871
From: Phoenix, AZ
Didn't they correct this in later Haynes models? Both Haynes and OEM service manual have correct timing procedure in my garage...
10-04-2013 | 10:49 AM
#5
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,707
From: Essex, UK
Not sure if they updated the Haynes - the consensus is the factory manual is okay
insulinboy > www.vtr1000.org • View topic - Familiar symptoms to anyone?
insulinboy > www.vtr1000.org • View topic - Familiar symptoms to anyone?
10-04-2013 | 11:23 AM
#6
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,871
From: Phoenix, AZ
Ok yeah, we're talking about the same thing. I remember being confused awhile back because everyone was saying that Haynes was incorrect, and I couldn't for the life of me figure out where when looking at mine. Apparently they corrected their misprint somewhere along the way.
10-04-2013 | 11:34 AM
#7
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 458
From: Rome, GA
I used factory manual and the how to on MCCT. Hand tight was a tight spot in my MCCT that resulted in the tensioner not connecting to the cam at all. When the head came off I made sure that the engine was on the ignition stroke before disassembly, and the engine didn't move from that position before I fired it up after reassembly (or at least it didn't move so far as to go past the point where I could see the mark in the window to re-align it)
The tank and all vacuum and drain lines to it are attached properly. This line does not reach far enough to get to the tank, it only goes as far as the colant tank and doesn't even quite reach it. I thought it went to the breather connected to the airbox till I found the vacuum line that really does go there and as I said in my first post it is a drain hose (it exits under the bike with the oil overflow and such) I cant find the hose anywhere in the service manual but found all the others that it does reference for the tank, and airbox.
They don't stock the plugs for the bike at any of the automotive shops in the area and I refuse to give my local honda dealer any of my buisness because they don't know there *** from a hole in the ground and told me not to ever replace my cam tensioners because they never need replacing unless they are making noise and all tires are the same as far as grip and wear and the only difference in them is price and what idiots on online forum say about them
after I told them that I'd been riding since I was a midget and worked as a mechanic in a kawasaki dealership they continued to tell me that they knew more than I did and I was just bull shitting them I decided they weren't worth my time or money.
I'm 99% positive its my plugs, I could tell that one cylinder was cutting in and out and I did get a little coolant in the cylinder when I removed the head (yes I changed the oil) and think that it killed the electrode in the plug. But I've also been known to miss something small (I am blind after all.. Sadly even more so when I got a new eyeglass prescription last week.. I think they screwed it up. Reading text is very difficult. I can see fine, reading is just hard as is focusing on small objects)
Anyway plugs and vacuum gauges are ordered to make a carb sync tool (I'd just rather spend $40 to have the pair of gauges than mess with oil in a bottle. I'm cheap, but Its also a tool I see myself getting a lot of use out of since I typically have more than one bike at a time and plan to get a track bike that will most likely be a 600cc carbed bike) I have to work tomorrow (saturday is the only day I really do any kind of real work owning a hobby shop lol) so it will be sunday when I get to tinker on it.
Edit: I would like to add that at first start the bike hesitated some and I gassed it a few times and its like it cleaned itself out. Sitting on the side stand it was running fine and reving out the way it should. I went inside and ate dinner came back out and started it and it was angry again and didn't want to clean out. I got it to where it seemed to be running okay and went to take it up and down the drive way (1/4 mile stone driveway I should add) got it up to the road and run it down the road some and about a mile down the road it just seemed like it stopped running on one cylinder and gave up, it didn't make any other noises than a sound like it would try to run on that cylinder but it misfired. No noise from the cam chains or any other mystery noises at all.
I'm just about positive its plug and sync related, but wanted to check to see if its something I missed. If for some reason the rear cams were 180* off would it really have run "right" at all when I first started it?
The tank and all vacuum and drain lines to it are attached properly. This line does not reach far enough to get to the tank, it only goes as far as the colant tank and doesn't even quite reach it. I thought it went to the breather connected to the airbox till I found the vacuum line that really does go there and as I said in my first post it is a drain hose (it exits under the bike with the oil overflow and such) I cant find the hose anywhere in the service manual but found all the others that it does reference for the tank, and airbox.
They don't stock the plugs for the bike at any of the automotive shops in the area and I refuse to give my local honda dealer any of my buisness because they don't know there *** from a hole in the ground and told me not to ever replace my cam tensioners because they never need replacing unless they are making noise and all tires are the same as far as grip and wear and the only difference in them is price and what idiots on online forum say about them
after I told them that I'd been riding since I was a midget and worked as a mechanic in a kawasaki dealership they continued to tell me that they knew more than I did and I was just bull shitting them I decided they weren't worth my time or money.I'm 99% positive its my plugs, I could tell that one cylinder was cutting in and out and I did get a little coolant in the cylinder when I removed the head (yes I changed the oil) and think that it killed the electrode in the plug. But I've also been known to miss something small (I am blind after all.. Sadly even more so when I got a new eyeglass prescription last week.. I think they screwed it up. Reading text is very difficult. I can see fine, reading is just hard as is focusing on small objects)
Anyway plugs and vacuum gauges are ordered to make a carb sync tool (I'd just rather spend $40 to have the pair of gauges than mess with oil in a bottle. I'm cheap, but Its also a tool I see myself getting a lot of use out of since I typically have more than one bike at a time and plan to get a track bike that will most likely be a 600cc carbed bike) I have to work tomorrow (saturday is the only day I really do any kind of real work owning a hobby shop lol) so it will be sunday when I get to tinker on it.
Edit: I would like to add that at first start the bike hesitated some and I gassed it a few times and its like it cleaned itself out. Sitting on the side stand it was running fine and reving out the way it should. I went inside and ate dinner came back out and started it and it was angry again and didn't want to clean out. I got it to where it seemed to be running okay and went to take it up and down the drive way (1/4 mile stone driveway I should add) got it up to the road and run it down the road some and about a mile down the road it just seemed like it stopped running on one cylinder and gave up, it didn't make any other noises than a sound like it would try to run on that cylinder but it misfired. No noise from the cam chains or any other mystery noises at all.
I'm just about positive its plug and sync related, but wanted to check to see if its something I missed. If for some reason the rear cams were 180* off would it really have run "right" at all when I first started it?
Last edited by insulinboy; 10-04-2013 at 11:48 AM.
10-04-2013 | 11:46 AM
#8
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,871
From: Phoenix, AZ
Make sure your coils are grounded properly too... sucks to chase down electrical/fuel mysteries!
Just because you've done a bunch of work on it, it would seem that it's part of the assembly process and not a plug that mysteriously went bad at the exact same time...
How big is the hose? It could be one of the two breathers that attache to either side of your carbs. This guy:
Except it is advisable to not thread it into the carbs like I have it, but rather leave it out and pointed down so that it can drain the occasional fuel splash better.
Just because you've done a bunch of work on it, it would seem that it's part of the assembly process and not a plug that mysteriously went bad at the exact same time...
How big is the hose? It could be one of the two breathers that attache to either side of your carbs. This guy:
Except it is advisable to not thread it into the carbs like I have it, but rather leave it out and pointed down so that it can drain the occasional fuel splash better.
10-04-2013 | 11:53 AM
#9
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 458
From: Rome, GA
no, that little hose at the top of the picture, I have two of those there, the one goes into the dohickey that attaches to the air box, and the other one only reaches the same length and just hangs out around there. If I recall correctly when I disassembled the bike it wasn't attached to anything either because I remember thinking that I was going to have to figure out where it went. My blood sugars have been off lately though and it makes my memory somewhat sketchy
Edit: and my carb drain hoses are actually routed the same way as yours are
Edit: and my carb drain hoses are actually routed the same way as yours are
10-04-2013 | 05:55 PM
#10
Senior Member
SuperBike
SuperBike
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,509
Isn't that top "little hose" supposed to go to the PAIR system? I believe I removed that one when I removed the PAIR system, and used a rubber vacuum cap on it. It's a vacuum hose, and if not properly routed or plugged, your bike won't run properly.
James
James
10-04-2013 | 06:11 PM
#11
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,871
From: Phoenix, AZ
Edit: Nevermind, I know what you're talking about. The second little hose should be capped like James said.
10-04-2013 | 06:30 PM
#13
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 458
From: Rome, GA
I will say again that I know the mystery hose is a drain, I said there are two hoses at the top by the frame where the one hose is, yes I know the one pictured is a vacuum hose and yes it is plugged into the thing under the airbox as its supposed to be.
The hose I am in question about is on a T twords the bottom of the bike and empties out under the bike not hooked to anything so there cannot be any vacuum in said hose.
To be sure I even did test it when I had the bike running yesterday and plugged it while the bike was running and it made no change whatsoever
The hose I am in question about is on a T twords the bottom of the bike and empties out under the bike not hooked to anything so there cannot be any vacuum in said hose.
To be sure I even did test it when I had the bike running yesterday and plugged it while the bike was running and it made no change whatsoever
10-04-2013 | 07:32 PM
#16
Senior Member
SuperBike
SuperBike
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,509
Maybe you're out of gas 
Try checking everything, then rechecking. Start with stuff under the tank, check throttle linkage, slides, hoses... If all that is fine, and you dont have PVLIR, then move under the valve covers.
PVLIR - check that the little hose going to the petcock is going to the correct nipple, on the left side, not the one on the bottom.
James
Try checking everything, then rechecking. Start with stuff under the tank, check throttle linkage, slides, hoses... If all that is fine, and you dont have PVLIR, then move under the valve covers.
PVLIR - check that the little hose going to the petcock is going to the correct nipple, on the left side, not the one on the bottom.
James
10-05-2013 | 05:05 AM
#17
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 458
From: Rome, GA
you funny guy you
Originally Posted by thedeatons
PVLIR - check that the little hose going to the petcock is going to the correct nipple, on the left side, not the one on the bottom.
James
James
10-05-2013 | 01:55 PM
#18
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 397
From: UK
That would attach to the PAIR unless it's been removed in which case it gets capped off.
It might be worth checking whether or not you getting a good spark from the rear plug. But saying that I have known plugs to give what looks like a good spark and it's faulty so may just be worth swapping it out.
Where the valve clearances done after the new valves. It could be worth double checking them. I don't think it would be 180 out as it would run perfectly fine up to 7000rpm and if the crank has not been spun like you said since removing the head then it should be OK.
From what you describe it does sound to me like some kind of vacuum or PAIR problem.
The bike idles fine, but it just doesn't want to take any throttle
it skips and pops and gets very angry
10-05-2013 | 05:27 PM
#19
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 458
From: Rome, GA
Coolant overflow was my initial guess but my fat fingers couldn't figure out where it would connect to the coolant tank.
Bike was running better the higher the revs got but with new valves I figured I didn't want to put in under a load over 4 or 5k till its had a few hundred miles to set in properly.
Yes I did do the valve clearences before buttoning everything up and I would just like to say that honda has bumped their heads charging what they do for those shims
I had some residual coolant that made its way into the cylinder as I was tightening everything down before I had changed the oil and I have had plugs die by coolant before. Just after everything that I've gone through with what originaly should have been a simple task that I rushed and did when my head wasn't clear (blood sugar related, I very rarely drink, and when I do its normally not more than one drink) I was frustraited and wanted to make sure I was covering everything I needed to cover
Bike was running better the higher the revs got but with new valves I figured I didn't want to put in under a load over 4 or 5k till its had a few hundred miles to set in properly.
Yes I did do the valve clearences before buttoning everything up and I would just like to say that honda has bumped their heads charging what they do for those shims
I had some residual coolant that made its way into the cylinder as I was tightening everything down before I had changed the oil and I have had plugs die by coolant before. Just after everything that I've gone through with what originaly should have been a simple task that I rushed and did when my head wasn't clear (blood sugar related, I very rarely drink, and when I do its normally not more than one drink) I was frustraited and wanted to make sure I was covering everything I needed to cover
10-05-2013 | 05:51 PM
#20
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 397
From: UK
Bike was running better the higher the revs got but with new valves I figured I didn't want to put in under a load over 4 or 5k till its had a few hundred miles to set in properly.
(:-})
10-05-2013 | 06:18 PM
#22
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 458
From: Rome, GA
Thanks for the image.
I still need to pick up the plugs and install them but if I got the exhaust cam 1 tooth off (it was very hard to see if it was perfect or not) could it possibly be causing an issue similar to what I'm having? If it was off it would be a tooth too advanced
I still need to pick up the plugs and install them but if I got the exhaust cam 1 tooth off (it was very hard to see if it was perfect or not) could it possibly be causing an issue similar to what I'm having? If it was off it would be a tooth too advanced
The funny thing is I was thinking bottom but started questioning myself then convinced myself I was wrong. LOL
10-05-2013 | 06:26 PM
#24
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 397
From: UK
but if I got the exhaust cam 1 tooth off (it was very hard to see if it was perfect or not) could it possibly be causing an issue similar to what I'm having? If it was off it would be a tooth too advanced
That rear one is awkward because of the frame. I lay a flat edge (ruler) along the top of the cylinder head and against the face of the cam sprockets. Torch helps as well to shine down between the exhaust cam sprocket and frame.
(:-})
10-05-2013 | 10:58 PM
#25
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
SuperBike
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,312
From: Brookfield, WI
10-06-2013 | 03:00 AM
#26
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 397
From: UK
LOL oops, yes indeed! thanks for the clarification. I'm usually pretty good at my language conversions. I didn't think of that one. We use the word torch for an open flame on the end of a stick caveman or medieval style which has been passed on in history to what you call a Flashlight.
(:-})
(:-})
10-06-2013 | 04:21 PM
#27
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 458
From: Rome, GA
Its okay, my first street bike about 13 years ago was an RD125 (years of dirt experiance prior) with a bad cylinder. I found lots of help in the yamaha-rd.co.uk forum and ever since British English and Canadian English mannerisms are fairly easy for me to decipher. In fact I ended up picking up a few bad habits like favourite and cheque The brits and canuks got all the good bikes that we never got here.. And still get a fair few of them. I'd kill for a DT125lc for a dual sport toy or an RD350lc to play around with from time to time
Oops. forgot the whole reason for me posting.
New plugs didn't solve my issue, I was hopeful. I checked with my new vacuum gauges to make sure that I was plugging the right lines in the right places and I was, mystery hose has no vacuum, but my coolant drain is plugged up so that's not it.
Both pipes are getting equally hot. Bike still idles fine, just doesn't like any throttle. I'm starting to think I should tear into the carbs and see if while they were of the bike maybe some gunk got jostled loose when I took them off and moved them around and is causing my problem. Bike does seem to respond a little better under choke. Some Car carbs (like my izusu pup) can get fubared if flipped upside down, anybody know of an issue like this with hawk carbs? I've never heard of that on a bike, but it doesn't hurt to ask right?
I hate working on carbs I'm starting to doubt myself and wonder if I shouldn't flip the cams in the rear cylinder just to be sure. It cant hurt the bike to do it and its an easy way to eliminate the possibility before moving on to a chore I hate much more
The brits and canuks got all the good bikes that we never got here.. And still get a fair few of them. I'd kill for a DT125lc for a dual sport toy or an RD350lc to play around with from time to timeOops. forgot the whole reason for me posting.
New plugs didn't solve my issue, I was hopeful. I checked with my new vacuum gauges to make sure that I was plugging the right lines in the right places and I was, mystery hose has no vacuum, but my coolant drain is plugged up so that's not it.
Both pipes are getting equally hot. Bike still idles fine, just doesn't like any throttle. I'm starting to think I should tear into the carbs and see if while they were of the bike maybe some gunk got jostled loose when I took them off and moved them around and is causing my problem. Bike does seem to respond a little better under choke. Some Car carbs (like my izusu pup) can get fubared if flipped upside down, anybody know of an issue like this with hawk carbs? I've never heard of that on a bike, but it doesn't hurt to ask right?
I hate working on carbs
I'm starting to doubt myself and wonder if I shouldn't flip the cams in the rear cylinder just to be sure. It cant hurt the bike to do it and its an easy way to eliminate the possibility before moving on to a chore I hate much more
Last edited by insulinboy; 10-06-2013 at 04:29 PM.
10-06-2013 | 08:26 PM
#28
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
SuperBike
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,312
From: Brookfield, WI
Please explain what you mean by "flip the cams" and what makes you think this is a good idea? Just curious.
Have you watched your carbs work (slides moving, butterfly opening) while the engine is running? What I mean is, have you verified that twisting the throttle is having the reaction it's supposed to?
Have you watched your carbs work (slides moving, butterfly opening) while the engine is running? What I mean is, have you verified that twisting the throttle is having the reaction it's supposed to?
10-06-2013 | 09:00 PM
#29
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,871
From: Phoenix, AZ
The cams are labeled exhaust and intake... not sure why you'd flip them...
I set a straight edge along the top of the head. I've set the cams one tooth off before and didn't want to make that mistake again. Maybe that's all it is?
I set a straight edge along the top of the head. I've set the cams one tooth off before and didn't want to make that mistake again. Maybe that's all it is?
10-07-2013 | 05:55 AM
#30
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 397
From: UK
I see where 7moore is going here, thinking a stuck slide. If a slide is stuck open the bike will perform poorly at low speeds/idle (cough and splutter with being too rich) , but once you get up to higher speeds/revs it should smooth out.
7... I think he's referring to flipping to check if 180 degrees out. Not swapping the inlet and exhaust over. Actually the easiest way to change it is to set the rear cylinder to TDC on the compression stoke, cam lobes pointing up and in, sprockets marks (RI and RE) lined up on the outside. Then remove the cams, get a helper to hold and feed the cam chain around while you turn the crank anti clockwise one full turn until the RT is lined up once more, then refit the cams as they where. You would have then put it either 180 degrees out or put it right depending on where it's at now.
insulinboy if it was 180 out it would idle fine and work perfectly if not better below 7000. FYI it would have more power than normal below the 7000 mark as 180 gives you more down low at the sacrifice of loosing top end above 7000. But like you say it would do no harm to flip them and check, BTBH your symptoms don't go with being 180 out.
And no, you can't turn the carbs upside down. Carbs may require some slight adjustments or jetting changes as you have had new valves and clearances have changed, which also links with the running better with the choke on. But it should not make drastic changes. I'm struggling now. When you say "just doesn't like any throttle" in what way, symptoms please. cough, splutter, surges or what. When you rev the bike, what's the rev needle do as it drops back to idle. Is it smooth or does it fluctuate at all?
My first bike was an RD125 twin, the modal before the LC's came out. I wish I still had that bike.
(:-})
7... I think he's referring to flipping to check if 180 degrees out. Not swapping the inlet and exhaust over. Actually the easiest way to change it is to set the rear cylinder to TDC on the compression stoke, cam lobes pointing up and in, sprockets marks (RI and RE) lined up on the outside. Then remove the cams, get a helper to hold and feed the cam chain around while you turn the crank anti clockwise one full turn until the RT is lined up once more, then refit the cams as they where. You would have then put it either 180 degrees out or put it right depending on where it's at now.
insulinboy if it was 180 out it would idle fine and work perfectly if not better below 7000. FYI it would have more power than normal below the 7000 mark as 180 gives you more down low at the sacrifice of loosing top end above 7000. But like you say it would do no harm to flip them and check, BTBH your symptoms don't go with being 180 out.
And no, you can't turn the carbs upside down. Carbs may require some slight adjustments or jetting changes as you have had new valves and clearances have changed, which also links with the running better with the choke on. But it should not make drastic changes. I'm struggling now. When you say "just doesn't like any throttle" in what way, symptoms please. cough, splutter, surges or what. When you rev the bike, what's the rev needle do as it drops back to idle. Is it smooth or does it fluctuate at all?
My first bike was an RD125 twin, the modal before the LC's came out. I wish I still had that bike.
(:-})
Last edited by cybercarl; 10-07-2013 at 06:05 AM.
