Ape or Honda
04-18-2010 | 04:13 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 27
From: North East England
Ape or Honda
My Storm has around 22,000 miles on the clock and runs perfect but the niggle is always there. Should I change the CCT. I have decided that this needs to be done for piece of mind .
The only issue is APE or Honda tensioners ?
Mick B
The only issue is APE or Honda tensioners ?
Mick B
04-18-2010 | 04:16 PM
#2
Senior Member
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 154
From: Cochrane, AB
Everyone will tell you to put the APE's in, why replace a crap tensioner with another crap tensioner? The APE tensioners are well made and don't fail. Once they are set, check them once a year and forget about them.
04-18-2010 | 04:27 PM
#4
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 27
From: North East England
I want the apes but just the worry about install and set up. I know it's probably me worrying about nothing but don't want to wreck my engine. I thought fitment was take one out bolt the ape in. Not to sure about stripping the bike to get the cam covers off etc.
04-18-2010 | 05:34 PM
#5
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From: Cochrane, AB
Its not very hard to do, I was paranoid as well but once I did it I was surprised at how easy it was. If you follow the instructions on here and make sure you are TDC of the compression stroke it will work.
04-18-2010 | 06:17 PM
#6
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SuperBike
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,548
From: MN
when I built my engine I put new stock ones in. they work fine for me and nearly everyone else and are used on many models beside the SH. but you will get those who feel very strongly for the manuals ones. Just be sure you are willing to check them (even infrequently) and if you do the install (either system) yourself, read the instructions twice and then actually follow them.
04-18-2010 | 08:35 PM
#8
pragmatic anarchist
Superstock
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 380
From: Philadelphia, PA
I did a PAIR block off, TPS adjustment and APE install all at once in about two hours. I'm very mechanically inclined but had never had the airbox off the Shawk before. Also put on a new fairing stay and did some touch up painting. Everything went well. Needed a couple of vac hose plugs, but otherwise no additional parts. Did the 450 degree turn after the rear CCT so only had to remove the rear cover. Had a shop manual that is pretty much worthless and available online as a PDF. Was EXTRA careful and checked all marks multiple times. Too late in the season for a fuckup. PULL THE PLUGS TO MAKE TURNING THE MOTOR EASIER! When you're done, turn the engine manually so you know there's no interference and rely on these fine boys if you run into any snags. We're here for ya.
04-18-2010 | 08:38 PM
#9
pragmatic anarchist
Superstock
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 380
From: Philadelphia, PA
Sorry... more. My OEM CCTs looked real good. Only about 10k on them and they look beefy as hell and seemed to have strong springs, but I wouldn't bother to replace stock with stock. Let's hear from all those who had a failure of a manual CCT.....Becky? Can't hear you!
04-18-2010 | 09:05 PM
#10
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MotoGP
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,132
From: Phoenix, AZ
It is more work to put in another set of OEM ones than to put in APEs since you have to mess with the springs on the new OEM ones and the APEs just go in. (same procedure before that, no matter what is going in there you have to take the valve covers off if you want to be sure of not having your cam timing slip)
04-18-2010 | 09:51 PM
#11
2nd mouse gets the cheese
SuperBike
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,697
From: Beaverton, OR
well at least the rear cover, f you do the 450 degree thing carefully everything will be fine. If you hear something slip when removing the cct you will have to remove the front cover too. Even if the timing slips it isn't that hard to set it all back again just takes a little more time.
04-18-2010 | 11:28 PM
#12
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From: North
I just finished setting the valve clearances on my bike which now has 57,000 miles. As a preventive measure I replaced the original CCT lifters with new ones. Never a problem with the original ones.
According to the dealer, in '02 the design was revised and the earlier ones have been superseded (new part number).
I read somewhere that automatic CCT lifters in general can back out if the engine is held at high rpm and the throttle is suddenly snapped shut. The VTR isn't the only machine with this potential problem.
According to the dealer, in '02 the design was revised and the earlier ones have been superseded (new part number).
I read somewhere that automatic CCT lifters in general can back out if the engine is held at high rpm and the throttle is suddenly snapped shut. The VTR isn't the only machine with this potential problem.
Last edited by storm_rider; 04-18-2010 at 11:32 PM.
04-18-2010 | 11:59 PM
#13
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 677
From: Rancho Cordova, California
Not everyone thinks they are "crap" tensioners actually.
04-19-2010 | 02:39 AM
#14
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 667
From: NY State
Just for kicks I did a reverse lookup on the OEM CCT: 14520-MBB-003, the only bike listed was the VTR. A big V-Twin is going to stress cam chains more than an I4 will. The torque is divided between 2-big pistons as opposed to 4-smaller pistons, THUD-THUD vs. thud-thud-thud-thud.
The servicehonda price for one new OEM CCT is $59. The APEs are ~$50 each, you need two, so the APEs are $18 less per pair. I would just go with the APEs and call it a day. Buy them from a place that has them in stock! Follow the procedure in the KB, use zipties and you will be fine. JB
Last edited by residentg; 04-19-2010 at 02:41 AM.
04-19-2010 | 07:31 AM
#15
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SuperBike
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,804
From: Atlanta, GA
04-19-2010 | 07:39 AM
#16
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Posts: 112
From: North
Manual tensioners are a good idea. Just that, for me at least, there was some uncertainty about how much to tighten these and how often.
Too tight is bad because it puts additional stresses on various components. Too loose and the chains will slip over the sprockets. I'm lazy, I prefer not to be bothered with manual adjustments. To each his own.
Too tight is bad because it puts additional stresses on various components. Too loose and the chains will slip over the sprockets. I'm lazy, I prefer not to be bothered with manual adjustments. To each his own.
04-19-2010 | 08:51 AM
#17
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 27
From: North East England
Well they were in stock at overstock and mailed 10 minutes after I paid,thanks Gary
UPS tracking number supplied so just need the Volcano to stop spewing ash over the UK and they will be on a plane to me
No doubt I will be asking advice once they arrive
UPS tracking number supplied so just need the Volcano to stop spewing ash over the UK and they will be on a plane to meNo doubt I will be asking advice once they arrive
Last edited by Mabsport; 04-19-2010 at 08:57 AM.
04-19-2010 | 09:17 AM
#18
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From: Cochrane, AB
Just take your time with the install, some guys can do it in an hour but it took me a better part of 4 hours because I triple checked everything and it went fine. Also LAZN has good instructions put together in his sig, click on his APE CCT in his signature and it will load a word document that is well laid out with pictures. Thats the instructions I used and it went well.
04-19-2010 | 09:48 AM
#19
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 27
From: North East England
Cheers guys 
Also just found out on SKY news that British air space is back open tomorrow so my apes will be here soon
Every ride I enjoy but always worry about the cct
but fingers crossed no more .
Also just found out on SKY news that British air space is back open tomorrow so my apes will be here soon
Every ride I enjoy but always worry about the cct
but fingers crossed no more .
04-19-2010 | 10:46 AM
#20
pragmatic anarchist
Superstock
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 380
From: Philadelphia, PA
Follow LAZNs PDF and check everything several times. Zip tie the sprocket and chain and you'd know if something went wrong. I put a black line on my socket to make tracking the 450 degrees easier. You need a SMALL screwdriver to loosen tension on the OEM CCTs. Thin blade and fairly short handle. I actually backed them out under tension by loosening the mounting bolts gradually and making sure the CCT was loose from the engine. Gaskets were intact on mine and a small tap with the wrench broke them free. I'd relieve tension if I was working on someone else's bike or if I didn't have time to reset cam timing if I f'ed it up. Front cylinder manual adjustment is a PITA with the coolant hoses in the way.
04-24-2010 | 06:09 AM
#21
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 27
From: North East England
Just for anyone who's interested. My Ape tensioners arrived this morning from sunny Florida. They were delivered quickly from Gary at overstock .From ordering they have only taken 4 days to arrive in the UK. I was a little worried with all the no fly and volcano stuff going on over Europe. If Gary has them in stock he offers a fast quality service. They arrived quicker than parts I've ordered in the UK at the same time.
Very very happy :-)
Now to fit them and sort my fuel issues out.
Very very happy :-)
Now to fit them and sort my fuel issues out.
Last edited by Mabsport; 04-24-2010 at 06:17 AM.
04-24-2010 | 06:27 AM
#22
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 667
From: NY State
Whie you are in there, check your valve clearances, and by all means - adjust the TPS. That TPS adjustment made a huge difference for me. Results vary bike to bike, mine were great, good KB articles on this. Went from being a beast to start to one quick push of the button.
JB
Last edited by residentg; 04-24-2010 at 06:30 AM.
04-27-2010 | 07:38 AM
#24
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 115
From: Upstate NY
This is just like the damn doohickey for my old KLR, now you've all made me paranoid :P Took my bike out for it's first long run this past weekend and it ran like a dream. I expected there to be some iffy spots here and there for a bike with 42k that I traded my $1500 bike for, but much to my enjoyment, there was no such funk. A little noise from the right side but another thread in this forum and some youtube vids explained that to me. Is there a specific symptom of messed up CCTs that I should be on the lookout for? I put the bike through some paces and it handled all of them beautifully, after a new front tire, brakes, and fluid flush I think it'll be even better
P.S. Did an oil change, easily the easiest oil change I have done on any vehicle (Did a 50HP Zetor tractor right afterwards and wished that Honda engineers had had a hand in it)
P.S. Did an oil change, easily the easiest oil change I have done on any vehicle (Did a 50HP Zetor tractor right afterwards and wished that Honda engineers had had a hand in it)
04-27-2010 | 03:21 PM
#27
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 27
From: North East England
Well the bike has just come in from a spirited ride and will have surgery tomorrow.I have a 3mm rear shock spacer and Ape tensioners to fit so wish me well.It will either be flags flying and bands playing as I celebrate the monumental task or a pissed off thats fucked it theme
Wish me well my fellow stormers(or hawkers)
and will have surgery tomorrow.I have a 3mm rear shock spacer and Ape tensioners to fit so wish me well.It will either be flags flying and bands playing as I celebrate the monumental task or a pissed off thats fucked it themeWish me well my fellow stormers(or hawkers)
Last edited by Mabsport; 04-27-2010 at 04:27 PM.
04-27-2010 | 04:16 PM
#28
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 677
From: Rancho Cordova, California
when I built my engine I put new stock ones in. they work fine for me and nearly everyone else and are used on many models beside the SH. but you will get those who feel very strongly for the manuals ones. Just be sure you are willing to check them (even infrequently) and if you do the install (either system) yourself, read the instructions twice and then actually follow them.
04-27-2010 | 06:51 PM
#29
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 963
From: Sunshine Coast, Australia
You can change CCT's without removing the valve covers. I have done this a couple of times now and it is easy to do. There is a post on here telling you how to do it. I think it is in the Knowledge Base.
And next time I do any major work on my bike I will be putting in the APE's as well. Good security to have.
And next time I do any major work on my bike I will be putting in the APE's as well. Good security to have.
04-27-2010 | 07:01 PM
#30
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 963
From: Sunshine Coast, Australia
I tried to find that post without luck. So I have copied it from the post I did on OzFirestorm.
This is a short cut to the normal process of removing the valve covers to check the timig marks, and ensure the cylinder is on TDC on the compression stroke.
Do all the usual stuff such as removing inspection plugs, and spark plugs. Then instead of taking the valve covers off do the following:
Squat down in front of the bike with the front wheel in front of your chest. You will see the front cylinder in front of you. As you face the bike observe the bottom left valve cover retaining bolt. (This is on the right hand side of the bike, and on the opposite side of the head to the cam gears.) Remove this bolt. Shine a small torch in through the hole. You will see the base circle of the camshaft.
Turn your engine in a counter clockwise direction until the FT timing marks line up for the front cylinder. This is as per normal. Now go back to your bolt hole and have a look. If the cam lobe is visible and pointing towards the front wheel, it is now TDC on compression. If you can only see the base circle of the cam rotate the engine until the timing mark is visible again, then re-check. It should then be correct. You can now change the CCT.
For the rear cylinder rotate the engine counter clockwise again 270 degrees until the RT timing mark lines up. As you have already identified the correct engine rotation on the front cylinder there is no need to do it again. Change the rear CCT.
All done. Drink a beer.
This is a short cut to the normal process of removing the valve covers to check the timig marks, and ensure the cylinder is on TDC on the compression stroke.
Do all the usual stuff such as removing inspection plugs, and spark plugs. Then instead of taking the valve covers off do the following:
Squat down in front of the bike with the front wheel in front of your chest. You will see the front cylinder in front of you. As you face the bike observe the bottom left valve cover retaining bolt. (This is on the right hand side of the bike, and on the opposite side of the head to the cam gears.) Remove this bolt. Shine a small torch in through the hole. You will see the base circle of the camshaft.
Turn your engine in a counter clockwise direction until the FT timing marks line up for the front cylinder. This is as per normal. Now go back to your bolt hole and have a look. If the cam lobe is visible and pointing towards the front wheel, it is now TDC on compression. If you can only see the base circle of the cam rotate the engine until the timing mark is visible again, then re-check. It should then be correct. You can now change the CCT.
For the rear cylinder rotate the engine counter clockwise again 270 degrees until the RT timing mark lines up. As you have already identified the correct engine rotation on the front cylinder there is no need to do it again. Change the rear CCT.
All done. Drink a beer.
