Rough times
06-29-2010 | 09:27 PM
#31
Bytes
Back Marker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 105
From: This side of hell
I got divorced about 25 years ago... no kids so my situation was not as bad as yours. Some stuff may still apply.
1. Don't let this **** up your education! Under any circumstances! The downside to ******* up school is you can't get the time back and it's expensive. I just said **** school for a while after my divorce. I am still kicking my own *** over that. Worst decision ever.
2. If you don't know any already, find some friends that like to have a good time. Those good times should include hittin' on the women folk occasionally! When I started my job after school I started hanging with this Ya Hooo guy that liked to party and womenize. Hanging around people that are having a good time makes it really hard to be depressed. Who knows you may go out somewhere and get laid? Best medicine ever.
3. Think back and you will probably be able to think about when things started going south. Objectively figure what was her problem and what was your problem. Keep a list of them and don't do'em next time you hook up. History has a tendency to repeat itself if you don't pay attention.
4. Repeat step 2 as often as needed.
Good luck dude, and sorry to hear about your misfortune.
1. Don't let this **** up your education! Under any circumstances! The downside to ******* up school is you can't get the time back and it's expensive. I just said **** school for a while after my divorce. I am still kicking my own *** over that. Worst decision ever.
2. If you don't know any already, find some friends that like to have a good time. Those good times should include hittin' on the women folk occasionally! When I started my job after school I started hanging with this Ya Hooo guy that liked to party and womenize. Hanging around people that are having a good time makes it really hard to be depressed. Who knows you may go out somewhere and get laid? Best medicine ever.
3. Think back and you will probably be able to think about when things started going south. Objectively figure what was her problem and what was your problem. Keep a list of them and don't do'em next time you hook up. History has a tendency to repeat itself if you don't pay attention.
4. Repeat step 2 as often as needed.
Good luck dude, and sorry to hear about your misfortune.
06-29-2010 | 10:38 PM
#32
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 28
From: far east
C-man;
Sorry to read about what had happened. However, you're still young & life is still a long journey for you. Maybe you should take take a bit of time to reflect & reevaluate your perspective before moving on forward. Gunner is your present & future while Gunner's mom is your recent past. She was with you, sadly she won't be with you anymore but Gunner is here & so are you! I'd say; damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!
Sorry to read about what had happened. However, you're still young & life is still a long journey for you. Maybe you should take take a bit of time to reflect & reevaluate your perspective before moving on forward. Gunner is your present & future while Gunner's mom is your recent past. She was with you, sadly she won't be with you anymore but Gunner is here & so are you! I'd say; damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!
06-30-2010 | 01:21 PM
#34
Sexual Daredevil
SuperSport
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 597
From: Mother Earth- orbiting around Charlotte, NC. But now over the border in S.C.
Let me see if I understand this; You and Liz have been together for 3 years and have a kid. She tells you she wants to see what is out there. You still have tons of feelings for her and are in no position to monitarily provide for her until school is out and you have a good job. And to top it off she likes your best friend. Is this correct?
Here is a solution.
1) Be a man. Men do things that have to be done.
2) Be a Father to your son. Be there for him. Let him know that you love him. Do it and say it.
3) Part ways with Liz. She does not know who she is or what she wants. Let her go.
4) Make room for the next person to enter your life. Do not seek out, but leave the door open so they can knock or walk in.
5) Ditch the best friend too. He has not told you yet, but he will tell you more than you want to hear.
6) Focus on yourself when you are not with your son. You must be strong and take care of yourself. No one else will. Your in school to better yourself and get a job to provide for your son.
7) Let it out. Get rid of the sorrow. You got 1 week to feel sad. After that start to move on. Trust all of us that went through a break up with a woman we loved. If it dosen't hurt, it was not a good love. After 30 days you will feel less sad and will feel even less 30 days after that. Time does heal.
Now, step up and be a man and get on with it. Your not the first person to go through this, your just going through it now.
Here is a solution.
1) Be a man. Men do things that have to be done.
2) Be a Father to your son. Be there for him. Let him know that you love him. Do it and say it.
3) Part ways with Liz. She does not know who she is or what she wants. Let her go.
4) Make room for the next person to enter your life. Do not seek out, but leave the door open so they can knock or walk in.
5) Ditch the best friend too. He has not told you yet, but he will tell you more than you want to hear.
6) Focus on yourself when you are not with your son. You must be strong and take care of yourself. No one else will. Your in school to better yourself and get a job to provide for your son.
7) Let it out. Get rid of the sorrow. You got 1 week to feel sad. After that start to move on. Trust all of us that went through a break up with a woman we loved. If it dosen't hurt, it was not a good love. After 30 days you will feel less sad and will feel even less 30 days after that. Time does heal.
Now, step up and be a man and get on with it. Your not the first person to go through this, your just going through it now.
06-30-2010 | 07:10 PM
#35
Thread Starter
Speed Demon
Superstock
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 272
From: Seattle, Wa
Moto,
Yes you got everything right. And I really appreciate all your advice. I did what you guys said and she turned from nice to toal bitch when I went to pick up Gunner today. as I left the drive way I had a big smile on my face. And then Gunner and I went to the beach. LOL!! Just got done dropping him off at his moms house and she didnt say a word. Again smiles cause I am in control now!!! My Old friend tried to play all buddy buddy with me and I told him how it was going to be and if he ***** up our friendship its his own damn fault and left it at that hopped on the bike and went back to the beach. Who ever invented spandex for women I want to thank them LOL!! Anywho ill let ya know how things play out. Corny....Sent ya a text earlier with a date for our ride.
Yes you got everything right. And I really appreciate all your advice. I did what you guys said and she turned from nice to toal bitch when I went to pick up Gunner today. as I left the drive way I had a big smile on my face. And then Gunner and I went to the beach. LOL!! Just got done dropping him off at his moms house and she didnt say a word. Again smiles cause I am in control now!!! My Old friend tried to play all buddy buddy with me and I told him how it was going to be and if he ***** up our friendship its his own damn fault and left it at that hopped on the bike and went back to the beach. Who ever invented spandex for women I want to thank them LOL!! Anywho ill let ya know how things play out. Corny....Sent ya a text earlier with a date for our ride.
Last edited by crackerjackman; 06-30-2010 at 08:01 PM. Reason: Grammer
06-30-2010 | 08:03 PM
#38
Thread Starter
Speed Demon
Superstock
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 272
From: Seattle, Wa
06-30-2010 | 09:33 PM
#40
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,611
From: Belgium, WI
Good to hear that you are controlling the situation. She will never be happy with that, and that means that you will get the best out of the situation (whatever it is that you are hoping for). Make sure the little guy doesn't get put "in the middle". I have to many students that have been the rope that holds two obnoxious people together, and there push, pull, and tugs on those kids have left them screwed up. This means that no matter how much you would ever want to tell the kid how you feel about your mother, its not the right time. He will have to experience relationships before he understands what you are going through. And I don't mean to tell you how to parent, I just have experienced too much of this. The forum will be here for you, that is for sure.
06-30-2010 | 11:33 PM
#41
Member
Squid
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 48
Such good advice...dont think I can top it, but will add a few things.
4 yrs ago my world fell apart. The g'friend I was living with wanted "see whats out there". Turns out, just like every other woman on the planet that says this, she already SAW what was out there.
I was devastated and thought my world had just ended. I had no appetite for months. Lost about 20 lbs (which put me back at my ideal weight of 185
) I was REALLY angry because I knew she was seeing a particular person who she swore up and down se wasnt. Instead of going crazy, I decided to take my aggression out at the gym and got in probably the best shape of my life. Then I signed up for an online dating service and met a TON of chicks...slept with a few but none could compare to my ex. I was still depressed then one day, 8 months after the breakup, I decided to stop being angry and forget about trying to replace her. Honest to god, the very next day I met the hottest woman (in my world) and we have been together for 3 1/2 years. Oh, the ex, she married the guy who she "wasnt seeing". But, every day I wake up and tell the hot girl in my bed that Im still madly in love with her. And I couldnt say that after living a year with the ex!
So... screw the bitch, she's damaged goods now! Hit the gym. Sign up for Match.com. **** some chicks for a while (with big ****...the bigger the better!). Take a trip. And dont be in a hurry to find the one who you are REALLY supposed to be with, she will show up when YOU are ready.
One other bit of advice: Grab a sticky note pad and write all the reasons why you HATE her. Only 1 reason per sticky. Stick the worst one on the phone and scatter the others through out the house. You need to be reminded of the bad, not the good. If you only think of the good, you will pick up the phone and make matters worse.
Good luck and keep telling yourself that she wasnt the one...regardless of what you have between you (Gunner)! And NEVER EVER EVER EVER ask your son what mommy was up to. Trust me, you dont want to go there!!
You may not appreciate my honesty right now, but as I look back and remember what my friends said when I was going through my ****, they told me the same....and they were right!
BTW, you say "all you want is for her to be happy". Dude, thats such a noble sentence but the bottom line is screw her, she isnt worth it! Focus on YOU being happy right now! (and that doesnt mean try to get her back, cus she is gone!)
4 yrs ago my world fell apart. The g'friend I was living with wanted "see whats out there". Turns out, just like every other woman on the planet that says this, she already SAW what was out there.
I was devastated and thought my world had just ended. I had no appetite for months. Lost about 20 lbs (which put me back at my ideal weight of 185
) I was REALLY angry because I knew she was seeing a particular person who she swore up and down se wasnt. Instead of going crazy, I decided to take my aggression out at the gym and got in probably the best shape of my life. Then I signed up for an online dating service and met a TON of chicks...slept with a few but none could compare to my ex. I was still depressed then one day, 8 months after the breakup, I decided to stop being angry and forget about trying to replace her. Honest to god, the very next day I met the hottest woman (in my world) and we have been together for 3 1/2 years. Oh, the ex, she married the guy who she "wasnt seeing". But, every day I wake up and tell the hot girl in my bed that Im still madly in love with her. And I couldnt say that after living a year with the ex!So... screw the bitch, she's damaged goods now! Hit the gym. Sign up for Match.com. **** some chicks for a while (with big ****...the bigger the better!). Take a trip. And dont be in a hurry to find the one who you are REALLY supposed to be with, she will show up when YOU are ready.
One other bit of advice: Grab a sticky note pad and write all the reasons why you HATE her. Only 1 reason per sticky. Stick the worst one on the phone and scatter the others through out the house. You need to be reminded of the bad, not the good. If you only think of the good, you will pick up the phone and make matters worse.
Good luck and keep telling yourself that she wasnt the one...regardless of what you have between you (Gunner)! And NEVER EVER EVER EVER ask your son what mommy was up to. Trust me, you dont want to go there!!
You may not appreciate my honesty right now, but as I look back and remember what my friends said when I was going through my ****, they told me the same....and they were right!
BTW, you say "all you want is for her to be happy". Dude, thats such a noble sentence but the bottom line is screw her, she isnt worth it! Focus on YOU being happy right now! (and that doesnt mean try to get her back, cus she is gone!)
07-01-2010 | 08:22 AM
#42
Senior Member
Back Marker
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 243
From: Toronto, Ontario
LOL Dude, its like you're in a parallel universe. i Did EVERYTHING you wrote and it all played out the way u said...creeeepy!
Such good advice...dont think I can top it, but will add a few things.
4 yrs ago my world fell apart. The g'friend I was living with wanted "see whats out there". Turns out, just like every other woman on the planet that says this, she already SAW what was out there.
I was devastated and thought my world had just ended. I had no appetite for months. Lost about 20 lbs (which put me back at my ideal weight of 185 ) I was REALLY angry because I knew she was seeing a particular person who she swore up and down se wasnt. Instead of going crazy, I decided to take my aggression out at the gym and got in probably the best shape of my life. Then I signed up for an online dating service and met a TON of chicks...slept with a few but none could compare to my ex. I was still depressed then one day, 8 months after the breakup, I decided to stop being angry and forget about trying to replace her. Honest to god, the very next day I met the hottest woman (in my world) and we have been together for 3 1/2 years. Oh, the ex, she married the guy who she "wasnt seeing". But, every day I wake up and tell the hot girl in my bed that Im still madly in love with her. And I couldnt say that after living a year with the ex!
So... screw the bitch, she's damaged goods now! Hit the gym. Sign up for Match.com. **** some chicks for a while (with big ****...the bigger the better!). Take a trip. And dont be in a hurry to find the one who you are REALLY supposed to be with, she will show up when YOU are ready.
One other bit of advice: Grab a sticky note pad and write all the reasons why you HATE her. Only 1 reason per sticky. Stick the worst one on the phone and scatter the others through out the house. You need to be reminded of the bad, not the good. If you only think of the good, you will pick up the phone and make matters worse.
Good luck and keep telling yourself that she wasnt the one...regardless of what you have between you (Gunner)! And NEVER EVER EVER EVER ask your son what mommy was up to. Trust me, you dont want to go there!!
You may not appreciate my honesty right now, but as I look back and remember what my friends said when I was going through my ****, they told me the same....and they were right!
BTW, you say "all you want is for her to be happy". Dude, thats such a noble sentence but the bottom line is screw her, she isnt worth it! Focus on YOU being happy right now! (and that doesnt mean try to get her back, cus she is gone!)
4 yrs ago my world fell apart. The g'friend I was living with wanted "see whats out there". Turns out, just like every other woman on the planet that says this, she already SAW what was out there.
I was devastated and thought my world had just ended. I had no appetite for months. Lost about 20 lbs (which put me back at my ideal weight of 185
) I was REALLY angry because I knew she was seeing a particular person who she swore up and down se wasnt. Instead of going crazy, I decided to take my aggression out at the gym and got in probably the best shape of my life. Then I signed up for an online dating service and met a TON of chicks...slept with a few but none could compare to my ex. I was still depressed then one day, 8 months after the breakup, I decided to stop being angry and forget about trying to replace her. Honest to god, the very next day I met the hottest woman (in my world) and we have been together for 3 1/2 years. Oh, the ex, she married the guy who she "wasnt seeing". But, every day I wake up and tell the hot girl in my bed that Im still madly in love with her. And I couldnt say that after living a year with the ex!So... screw the bitch, she's damaged goods now! Hit the gym. Sign up for Match.com. **** some chicks for a while (with big ****...the bigger the better!). Take a trip. And dont be in a hurry to find the one who you are REALLY supposed to be with, she will show up when YOU are ready.
One other bit of advice: Grab a sticky note pad and write all the reasons why you HATE her. Only 1 reason per sticky. Stick the worst one on the phone and scatter the others through out the house. You need to be reminded of the bad, not the good. If you only think of the good, you will pick up the phone and make matters worse.
Good luck and keep telling yourself that she wasnt the one...regardless of what you have between you (Gunner)! And NEVER EVER EVER EVER ask your son what mommy was up to. Trust me, you dont want to go there!!
You may not appreciate my honesty right now, but as I look back and remember what my friends said when I was going through my ****, they told me the same....and they were right!
BTW, you say "all you want is for her to be happy". Dude, thats such a noble sentence but the bottom line is screw her, she isnt worth it! Focus on YOU being happy right now! (and that doesnt mean try to get her back, cus she is gone!)
07-01-2010 | 02:13 PM
#43
Thread Starter
Speed Demon
Superstock
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 272
From: Seattle, Wa
Im still alive. LOL!! just got back form school. Got in trouble and had to have a talk with the teacher in his office cause I failed a pop quiz and I wasnt focused in class today. I know all about the push pull BS with split parents. I myself am a fucked up kid from my parents doing the **** you wrote about Autoteach. My dad talked mad **** about mom when I was growing up and still does. I hate him for it. He only calls when he wants me to bring down gunner.
Midwest: I hear ya on that. Thats about what I am going through right now. No appetight and cant sleep, **** like that. Ive been up since 6am yesterday morning and now my body is tired but my brain aint.
Imma let ya guys go for a bit. I am going to try and take a nap no matter if I have to glue my eyelids shut, LOL!!! I gots a bad headache and I need to get some food in me. thanks again guy for all the advice.
Philip
Midwest: I hear ya on that. Thats about what I am going through right now. No appetight and cant sleep, **** like that. Ive been up since 6am yesterday morning and now my body is tired but my brain aint.
Imma let ya guys go for a bit. I am going to try and take a nap no matter if I have to glue my eyelids shut, LOL!!! I gots a bad headache and I need to get some food in me. thanks again guy for all the advice.
Philip
07-01-2010 | 10:30 PM
#44
Thread Starter
Speed Demon
Superstock
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 272
From: Seattle, Wa
Hey guys, Just letting you know that I talked to my homie and him and I are cool now. Liz and I are going to be civil and Talk about some stuffs. I feel really relieved. Its going to take some time to forgive my buddy but him and I agree that our friendship is worth more than the mess posted above. I told him that this **** needed to stop immediately and if he still wanted me as his best friend then he need stop cause if not I was going to kick his *** and them cut ties with him. I said to him that i was not joking around and not bluffing. Thanks again for all the advice guys I appreciate it. Corny.... we are still on for my road trip next friday.
07-02-2010 | 08:36 AM
#46
2nd mouse gets the cheese
SuperBike
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,697
From: Beaverton, OR
.
07-05-2010 | 01:11 PM
#48
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 655
From: Madison Wisconsin
well unfortunate i have just gone through this. this is what I learned.
1 ride the bike ride the bike ride the bike. not fast or hell bent just find a group of roads make a route and ride it over and over both ways get smooth forget all else when on the bike. Never ride mad.
2. Dont talk to her at all other than what is needed for your son. there will be time for that latter that is a sure thing. she will try to talk but just clear your head. You will find out who your friends are that is for sure keep them close and treat them as you want to be treated.
3 Dont drink in my case that is what fucked up my life. two drunk driving tickets cost me $6 an hour and i am just getting my finances in order. my house is up for auction on the 13th but I can buy it back. has been going on for 2years sucks lots of emotion and worry. I just get my drivers lic back on this Friday been gone for 2 years.
4. she is going to get a man just the opposite of you. more than likely it will make her life go down hill. if she goes to far you can do little things to help her. but dont let her know you are doing it.
5. dont talk her down to anyone other than your close friends and keep that to a minimum. people will try to get you to talk her down dont do it be a man. If she talks you down so be it. Karma goes both ways.
Now how it is after 2 years. 3 months ago she called me out of the blue told me she was sorry told me that I was the only one that held her accountable for her actions. "she owed me $15,000 for paying her bills off" I took her to court made her accountable for her actions. Now we are back together ya there is some **** I have to look over but if you love her you will. We are happier than we where when we where together for the first 4 years. There is so much I can say about this but I was with different woman when we where apart but she is the one I wanted even after all the hurt. dont ask me why other woman where better looking and financially secure. But I did not love them like I do her.
1 ride the bike ride the bike ride the bike. not fast or hell bent just find a group of roads make a route and ride it over and over both ways get smooth forget all else when on the bike. Never ride mad.
2. Dont talk to her at all other than what is needed for your son. there will be time for that latter that is a sure thing. she will try to talk but just clear your head. You will find out who your friends are that is for sure keep them close and treat them as you want to be treated.
3 Dont drink in my case that is what fucked up my life. two drunk driving tickets cost me $6 an hour and i am just getting my finances in order. my house is up for auction on the 13th but I can buy it back. has been going on for 2years sucks lots of emotion and worry. I just get my drivers lic back on this Friday been gone for 2 years.
4. she is going to get a man just the opposite of you. more than likely it will make her life go down hill. if she goes to far you can do little things to help her. but dont let her know you are doing it.
5. dont talk her down to anyone other than your close friends and keep that to a minimum. people will try to get you to talk her down dont do it be a man. If she talks you down so be it. Karma goes both ways.
Now how it is after 2 years. 3 months ago she called me out of the blue told me she was sorry told me that I was the only one that held her accountable for her actions. "she owed me $15,000 for paying her bills off" I took her to court made her accountable for her actions. Now we are back together ya there is some **** I have to look over but if you love her you will. We are happier than we where when we where together for the first 4 years. There is so much I can say about this but I was with different woman when we where apart but she is the one I wanted even after all the hurt. dont ask me why other woman where better looking and financially secure. But I did not love them like I do her.
Last edited by Stumpy; 07-05-2010 at 01:23 PM.
07-06-2010 | 07:14 AM
#49
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 736
From: Pa
Hang in There
Cracker how u doin?
Mostly great advice from all.
1. Son is most important.
2. Make sure U & her are on same page regarding ur child. Make sure she knows the kid is 1st.
All relationships have there ups & downs.
Stay in school, ride ur moto, hang w/ good friends.
Some great advice my boy Flaco told me many yrs ago
People accept others for who they are or not at all. Stay true to urself.
Keep ur head up & rubber side down.
Mostly great advice from all.
1. Son is most important.
2. Make sure U & her are on same page regarding ur child. Make sure she knows the kid is 1st.
All relationships have there ups & downs.
Stay in school, ride ur moto, hang w/ good friends.
Some great advice my boy Flaco told me many yrs ago
People accept others for who they are or not at all. Stay true to urself.
Keep ur head up & rubber side down.
09-30-2010 | 01:20 PM
#50
Thread Starter
Speed Demon
Superstock
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 272
From: Seattle, Wa
Hey guys!!
Long time no chat. LOL! Anywho I am alive and doing well. Most of the time... Lets see, some new updates on how im doing. Well The biggest one is that i am on some new meds that work, so now i am more mellowed out at school and stuff. Second, is i started Fall quarter so that makes me in my 3rd quarter. School is going well and I am showing up everyday cause I carpool with a classmate.
Things with Baby mama have settled down. Gotten over the whole thing cause i took a stand. I am seeing my son more frequently and am being civil with his mom when he comes down to my place to be dropped off. And I found out last thursday that a very close friend pasted away. He died from a overdose of heroin and meth. I am taking it pretty hard but trying to hang in there. Did I miss anything while i was gone??
Long time no chat. LOL! Anywho I am alive and doing well. Most of the time... Lets see, some new updates on how im doing. Well The biggest one is that i am on some new meds that work, so now i am more mellowed out at school and stuff. Second, is i started Fall quarter so that makes me in my 3rd quarter. School is going well and I am showing up everyday cause I carpool with a classmate.
Things with Baby mama have settled down. Gotten over the whole thing cause i took a stand. I am seeing my son more frequently and am being civil with his mom when he comes down to my place to be dropped off. And I found out last thursday that a very close friend pasted away. He died from a overdose of heroin and meth. I am taking it pretty hard but trying to hang in there. Did I miss anything while i was gone??
07-21-2011 | 06:39 PM
#53
99 superhawk
Superstock
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 256
From: jasper Ga.
I have been there and done all the above...
I waited and wandered after I got out of the service, found a gal (she was 19) and we got married, she already had a 9month old baby girl . we then had 2 more boys. years went by and she was a drunk and a cheater. I stayed due to the kids (was the wrong approach hoping things would change, they never do). One day I opened my eyes and simply asked myself 1 question ( 1 that mattered lol among many) was I and the kids happy? answer was no! I realized I was only fooling myself as you are too, they don't want you! there are simply too many of these types out there. I raised the kids on my own after giving her the boot (including I raised my step daughter as well.) now it is not true that you cannot be friends with benefits (done that and felt good too being as she remarried and he was the one she was cheating with well shoe was now on the other foot lmao). but however even though she asked if I would take her back the answer came easy NO! she would always be looking. same applies to you my friend. However I will say this time go's by fast, so don't wait it out on the sidelines like I did. GET OUT AND REJOIN LIFE!!!!!!!
I waited and wandered after I got out of the service, found a gal (she was 19) and we got married, she already had a 9month old baby girl . we then had 2 more boys. years went by and she was a drunk and a cheater. I stayed due to the kids (was the wrong approach hoping things would change, they never do). One day I opened my eyes and simply asked myself 1 question ( 1 that mattered lol among many) was I and the kids happy? answer was no! I realized I was only fooling myself as you are too, they don't want you! there are simply too many of these types out there. I raised the kids on my own after giving her the boot (including I raised my step daughter as well.) now it is not true that you cannot be friends with benefits (done that and felt good too being as she remarried and he was the one she was cheating with well shoe was now on the other foot lmao). but however even though she asked if I would take her back the answer came easy NO! she would always be looking. same applies to you my friend. However I will say this time go's by fast, so don't wait it out on the sidelines like I did. GET OUT AND REJOIN LIFE!!!!!!!
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