Nicky Hayden going to Ducati....
08-25-2008, 07:31 AM
#31
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you can only compare across the ages by looking at how they perform relative to their peers. Suffice it to say there is no 'less' talent now than then. Rossi is head and shoulders above his peers - he is one of the few that has shown the ability to adapt and master from 500 2 stroke, large four stroke, 800cc and electronic controls with every improving tire performance. That is talent, brains dedication and committment: legendary talent in any era.
And mike tyson in his prime would have eaten all the others.
And mike tyson in his prime would have eaten all the others.
08-25-2008, 07:57 AM
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I like Nicky Haden but am not so sure he will thrive on a Ducati (I hope he does), I certainly do not think he got a poor deal with Honda. As to the great riders it is my opinion that while Halewood, Agostini and the likes of Surtees do rise to the status of mythic hero’s I do not for a minute believe they could keep pace with today’s talent, just as I do not believe NFL players of the 1960’s could stand up to today’s athletes. We will never know and it makes for good discussion. I don’t see Mick Doohan’s name mentioned let’s not forget him and while winning many races and titles is important to be classified as a ‘great’ there are impact riders who change other riders approach to the sport. Kenny Roberts was both an agent of change and a historically great rider, so was Kevin Schwantz. What about a rider like Pat Hennin who awed Europeans with his over the edge 110% aggressiveness, sadly he never really achieved greatness after injuries stopped him. Or Randy Mamola who was so strong for so long, somehow he should receive an honorary title as world champion based on his wins and second place finishes. What would have happened if Jarno Saarinen had not been killed, would he have been the greatest ever? Everyone has different standards but my point is it is very difficult to apply any single standard, if you go by championships won Agostini would be near the top of the list but while he was a great rider he had no serious completion until Halewood and Honda arrived. Spencer did not win that many multiple titles but his 250, 500 dual Championship in 1985 was a spectacular achievement. I personally think the greatest rider of all time is racing right now, his name Valentino Rossi.
Last edited by Jim TT; 08-25-2008 at 08:19 AM.
08-25-2008, 07:57 AM
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you can only compare across the ages by looking at how they perform relative to their peers. Suffice it to say there is no 'less' talent now than then. Rossi is head and shoulders above his peers - he is one of the few that has shown the ability to adapt and master from 500 2 stroke, large four stroke, 800cc and electronic controls with every improving tire performance. That is talent, brains dedication and committment: legendary talent in any era.
And mike tyson in his prime would have eaten all the others.
And mike tyson in his prime would have eaten all the others.
And Mike Tyson in his prime did eat all of the others or at least their ears!!!
08-25-2008, 08:03 AM
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08-25-2008, 08:35 AM
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I like Nicky Haden but am not so sure he will thrive on a Ducati (I hope he does), I certainly do not think he got a poor deal with Honda. As to the great riders it is my opinion that while Halewood, Agostini and the likes of Surtees do rise to the status of mythic hero’s I do not for a minute believe they could keep pace with today’s talent, just as I do not believe NFL players of the 1960’s could stand up to today’s athletes. We will never know and it makes for good discussion. I don’t see Mick Doohan’s name mentioned let’s not forget him and while winning many races and titles is important to be classified as a ‘great’ there are impact riders who change other riders approach to the sport. Kenny Roberts was both an agent of change and a historically great rider, so was Kevin Schwantz. What about a rider like Pat Hennin who awed Europeans with his over the edge 110% aggressiveness, sadly he never really achieved greatness after injuries stopped him. Or Randy Mamola who was so strong for so long, somehow he should receive an honorary title as world champion based on his wins and second place finishes. What would have happened if Jarno Saarinen had not been killed, would he have been the greatest ever? Everyone has different standards but my point is it is very difficult to apply any single standard, if you go by championships won Agostini would be near the top of the list but while he was a great rider he had no serious completion until Halewood and Honda arrived. Spencer did not win that many multiple titles but his 250, 500 dual Championship in 1985 was a spectacular achievement. I personally think the greatest rider of all time is racing right now, his name Valentino Rossi.
If your going to throw in Hennen and Jarno then you must certainly add the Bellinham Washinton Flash Steve Baker who not only spanked KR on most occasions but then went to Europe and proceeded to spank them as well in F750.
Mamola is a classic example of an "A" rider on a "B" bike the Cagiva and to his credit he did win one on the thing,and he's still scaring the hell out of passengers on his 2up Ducati.
The single thing I would really disagree on is Ago, he was still winning in the "modern era" after the rest were long gone and unless or until Rossi breaks his record he was and is the best ever!
08-25-2008, 09:31 AM
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I pretty much agree with most of what you said and it was only the wine that kept me from mentioning Doohan (who I think was better than Rossi).
If your going to throw in Hennen and Jarno then you must certainly add the Bellinham Washinton Flash Steve Baker who not only spanked KR on most occasions but then went to Europe and proceeded to spank them as well in F750.
Mamola is a classic example of an "A" rider on a "B" bike the Cagiva and to his credit he did win one on the thing,and he's still scaring the hell out of passengers on his 2up Ducati.
The single thing I would really disagree on is Ago, he was still winning in the "modern era" after the rest were long gone and unless or until Rossi breaks his record he was and is the best ever!
If your going to throw in Hennen and Jarno then you must certainly add the Bellinham Washinton Flash Steve Baker who not only spanked KR on most occasions but then went to Europe and proceeded to spank them as well in F750.
Mamola is a classic example of an "A" rider on a "B" bike the Cagiva and to his credit he did win one on the thing,and he's still scaring the hell out of passengers on his 2up Ducati.
The single thing I would really disagree on is Ago, he was still winning in the "modern era" after the rest were long gone and unless or until Rossi breaks his record he was and is the best ever!
08-25-2008, 09:46 AM
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I guess this thread has gotten a little out of hand, but it's been fun. I guess my point is this.
When JimTT and me and some of the others come up with our top 10 list will Nicky Haydens name be on it..no but Rossi's will (whether I like him or not).
So if Nicky goes to Ducati I wish him all the best and I hope they give him a better bike to ride than Honda's RC212 and better tires than the Frogs at Michelin have given him. Who knows maybe I'm wrong. Another MotoGP championship could certainly alter my view.
In the words of Forest Gump "that's all I have to say about that".
When JimTT and me and some of the others come up with our top 10 list will Nicky Haydens name be on it..no but Rossi's will (whether I like him or not).
So if Nicky goes to Ducati I wish him all the best and I hope they give him a better bike to ride than Honda's RC212 and better tires than the Frogs at Michelin have given him. Who knows maybe I'm wrong. Another MotoGP championship could certainly alter my view.
In the words of Forest Gump "that's all I have to say about that".
08-25-2008, 10:24 AM
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Hey man, it's just opinions.
I wouldn't say this thread got out of hand.
Carl Fogarty is a name that hasn't been mentioned, but certainly deserves consideration. I believe that he held the outright lap record at the IOM for a few years. That, in addition to his four world championships, puts him in rare company.
Troy Bayliss is also the rare rider who can take your bike and beat you with it. Although he was unsuccessful in MotoGP with an uncompetitive Ducati, he did return for a one off ride and win on the much improved version.
Scott Russell won the WSB championship in his first year with a bike that wasn't as good as Fogarty's Ducati. Russell was a supremely talented rider with some, shall we say, "focus" issues.
These three (in my opinion, of course) are all "A" riders in spite of their lack of experience/success in GP racing.
I wouldn't say this thread got out of hand.Carl Fogarty is a name that hasn't been mentioned, but certainly deserves consideration. I believe that he held the outright lap record at the IOM for a few years. That, in addition to his four world championships, puts him in rare company.
Troy Bayliss is also the rare rider who can take your bike and beat you with it. Although he was unsuccessful in MotoGP with an uncompetitive Ducati, he did return for a one off ride and win on the much improved version.
Scott Russell won the WSB championship in his first year with a bike that wasn't as good as Fogarty's Ducati. Russell was a supremely talented rider with some, shall we say, "focus" issues.
These three (in my opinion, of course) are all "A" riders in spite of their lack of experience/success in GP racing.
08-25-2008, 10:38 AM
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I would not argue with Killer5280 about any of those 3 riders..all would be on my list of "A" riders. I loved how Bayliss spanked the MotoGP crowd with a wildcard ride. Fogarty was certainly no sloch either and I guess I didn't realize the IOM thing with him. Certainly I would not argue about Mr Daytona Scott Russel, but I wouldn't put Nicky in their company either.
Here's a throwdown (maybe requiring a new thread) who are your top ten ever! I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
Here's a throwdown (maybe requiring a new thread) who are your top ten ever! I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
08-25-2008, 05:15 PM
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I like Nicky Haden but am not so sure he will thrive on a Ducati (I hope he does), I certainly do not think he got a poor deal with Honda. As to the great riders it is my opinion that while Halewood, Agostini and the likes of Surtees do rise to the status of mythic hero’s I do not for a minute believe they could keep pace with today’s talent, just as I do not believe NFL players of the 1960’s could stand up to today’s athletes. We will never know and it makes for good discussion. I don’t see Mick Doohan’s name mentioned let’s not forget him and while winning many races and titles is important to be classified as a ‘great’ there are impact riders who change other riders approach to the sport. Kenny Roberts was both an agent of change and a historically great rider, so was Kevin Schwantz. What about a rider like Pat Hennin who awed Europeans with his over the edge 110% aggressiveness, sadly he never really achieved greatness after injuries stopped him. Or Randy Mamola who was so strong for so long, somehow he should receive an honorary title as world champion based on his wins and second place finishes. What would have happened if Jarno Saarinen had not been killed, would he have been the greatest ever? Everyone has different standards but my point is it is very difficult to apply any single standard, if you go by championships won Agostini would be near the top of the list but while he was a great rider he had no serious completion until Halewood and Honda arrived. Spencer did not win that many multiple titles but his 250, 500 dual Championship in 1985 was a spectacular achievement. I personally think the greatest rider of all time is racing right now, his name Valentino Rossi.
The "greats" of 40 years ago were big fish in a very small pond. Would they be great today? Maybe, there is no way to know, but the math argues against it.
08-25-2008, 05:42 PM
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AS for AMA titles I think he only won one. The best Superbike rider Honda ever had was named Fred only it was Merkel not Spencer. Unfortunately his lifestyle got in the way of his greatness. He went to Europe and won World Superbike Championships and lived avida loca over there and I think still does.
I like the "A" and "B" and "everyone else" analysis. Yep, it applies at all sorts of levels. I've raced classics with 2 former world roadrace champions and a couple of guys who were 2nd in world championships, and their smooth skill levels seem almost superhuman when you're out there with them. I once thought I was pretty good with my national championships: not.
Wayne Gardner, a "one trick pony"? Hmmmm, look at the classic and post-classic racing he is still doing, against other former world champions. Early this year, he lapped Phillip Island on a CB900 (about 1980 model, unfaired) at 1:42; MotoGP's best are just under 1:30.
Incidentally, my tyre guy Chris Haldane (another Kiwi) won the AMA Superbike championship in the early 90s.
08-25-2008, 06:58 PM
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FWIW, I mentioned Mick Doohan back in post #24. Your point about '60s NFL players is 100% valid. The talent pool/level of competition 40-50 years ago was a complete joke compared to Motogp today.
The "greats" of 40 years ago were big fish in a very small pond. Would they be great today? Maybe, there is no way to know, but the math argues against it.
The "greats" of 40 years ago were big fish in a very small pond. Would they be great today? Maybe, there is no way to know, but the math argues against it.
Remember these guys didn't have Ohlins or frames that didn't flex or flexed only when you wanted them to, or tires that were practically 8" wide with 4" contact patches and they still went like a bat out of hell. There may not have been a big talent pool cause most men simply couldn't or wouldn't do it.
08-25-2008, 07:05 PM
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Nah, Fred M lives here in New Zealand, and has done for some years. Still tutors at Honda track days.
I like the "A" and "B" and "everyone else" analysis. Yep, it applies at all sorts of levels. I've raced classics with 2 former world roadrace champions and a couple of guys who were 2nd in world championships, and their smooth skill levels seem almost superhuman when you're out there with them. I once thought I was pretty good with my national championships: not.
Wayne Gardner, a "one trick pony"? Hmmmm, look at the classic and post-classic racing he is still doing, against other former world champions. Early this year, he lapped Phillip Island on a CB900 (about 1980 model, unfaired) at 1:42; MotoGP's best are just under 1:30.
Incidentally, my tyre guy Chris Haldane (another Kiwi) won the AMA Superbike championship in the early 90s.
I like the "A" and "B" and "everyone else" analysis. Yep, it applies at all sorts of levels. I've raced classics with 2 former world roadrace champions and a couple of guys who were 2nd in world championships, and their smooth skill levels seem almost superhuman when you're out there with them. I once thought I was pretty good with my national championships: not.
Wayne Gardner, a "one trick pony"? Hmmmm, look at the classic and post-classic racing he is still doing, against other former world champions. Early this year, he lapped Phillip Island on a CB900 (about 1980 model, unfaired) at 1:42; MotoGP's best are just under 1:30.
Incidentally, my tyre guy Chris Haldane (another Kiwi) won the AMA Superbike championship in the early 90s.
08-25-2008, 07:56 PM
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Nonsense the 72 Dolphins are still the only undefeated team not the 07 Patriots or the 85 Bears. The great riders are always great regardless of the "pool".
Remember these guys didn't have Ohlins or frames that didn't flex or flexed only when you wanted them to, or tires that were practically 8" wide with 4" contact patches and they still went like a bat out of hell. There may not have been a big talent pool cause most men simply couldn't or wouldn't do it.
Remember these guys didn't have Ohlins or frames that didn't flex or flexed only when you wanted them to, or tires that were practically 8" wide with 4" contact patches and they still went like a bat out of hell. There may not have been a big talent pool cause most men simply couldn't or wouldn't do it.
Ha! Why is it nonsense? The '72 Dolphins won 17 straight against the competition in 1972. They never played the '85 Bears of '07 Patriots. How would they do now? Can't say, but I know this; Player for player and team for team the NFL is a tougher neighborhood than it was 36 years ago.
Could Ago and Hailwood be winning Motogp championships today? It is entirely possible BUT, the pool of talent from which the best riders rise is many multiples of what it was 40 or 50 years ago and the skill level of the guys who make it to Motogp is as well.
I'm not knocking the old time guys, I'm just saying we'll never know. The slow bike, skinny tire and boingy suspension doesn't prove it for me one way or the other. Plenty of guys kick *** on slower, heavier lower tech Superbikes and wash out when they get to Motogp.
08-25-2008, 08:05 PM
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Ha! Why is it nonsense? The '72 Dolphins won 17 straight against the competition in 1972. They never played the '85 Bears of '07 Patriots. How would they do now? Can't say, but I know this; Player for player and team for team the NFL is a tougher neighborhood than it was 36 years ago.
Could Ago and Hailwood be winning Motogp championships today? It is entirely possible BUT, the pool of talent from which the best riders rise is many multiples of what it was 40 or 50 years ago and the skill level of the guys who make it to Motogp is as well.
I'm not knocking the old time guys, I'm just saying we'll never know. The slow bike, skinny tire and boingy suspension doesn't prove it for me one way or the other. Plenty of guys kick *** on slower, heavier lower tech Superbikes and wash out when they get to Motogp.
Could Ago and Hailwood be winning Motogp championships today? It is entirely possible BUT, the pool of talent from which the best riders rise is many multiples of what it was 40 or 50 years ago and the skill level of the guys who make it to Motogp is as well.
I'm not knocking the old time guys, I'm just saying we'll never know. The slow bike, skinny tire and boingy suspension doesn't prove it for me one way or the other. Plenty of guys kick *** on slower, heavier lower tech Superbikes and wash out when they get to Motogp.
I do agree that "plenty of guys kick *** on slower, heavier lower tech Superbikes and wash out in MotoGp" let's see Colin Edwards, Nicky Hayden, Ant West, John Hopkins, and both Roberts boys all come to mind.
My bad the jury is still out on Nicky and I like the guy and hope he does well with Ducati, as for the others I rest my case.
Last edited by HRCA#1; 08-25-2008 at 08:11 PM.
08-25-2008, 08:11 PM
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It's not for the Dolphins to play the Patriots or Bear it's for them to beat their record..they haven't.
I do agree that "plenty of guys kick *** on slower, heavier lower tech Superbikes and wash out in MotoGp" let's see Colin Edwards, Nicky Hayden, Ant West, John Hopkins, and both Roberts boys all come to mind.
I do agree that "plenty of guys kick *** on slower, heavier lower tech Superbikes and wash out in MotoGp" let's see Colin Edwards, Nicky Hayden, Ant West, John Hopkins, and both Roberts boys all come to mind.
I'll sum it up like this;
I'm not saying the '72 Dolphins couldn't run the table this year and I'm not saying Hailwood and Agostini couldn't win Motogp championships in this era.
I'm just saying the competition is stiffer than anything they faced when they set their records and it is hard to make definitive declarations when comparing apples and monkey wrenches.
08-25-2008, 08:16 PM
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its like I said earlier, you can only compare by how they stacked up amongst peers. The best from then had the natural talent and dedication to maximize their potential and overcome setbacks and rise to the top: they would bring the same to todays game and be comparable. Micheal Phelps is not more talented than Mark Spitz - but you can bet his training opportunities, teachings, diet/exercise regimen have benefitted from time, along with a higher level team. The first guys to backflip an MX bike opened eyes - now most competitive X-moto guys can do it easily and it becomes what young guys have as a basic skill to build upon. Now the kids coming up through redbull rookie series will put these guys to shame in a decade or so, just like Lorenzo will as soon as he learns how to stay upright. There is a lot of natural talent out there, less that is also uniquely combined with the massive dedication to maximize that potential (just look at a case like Gobert)- but I'm guessing it occurs at a constant rate throughout time. Excepting Joe Namath - that was talent.............................
08-25-2008, 08:19 PM
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In fact I'll throw out something else. I remember going to Daytona and some guy named Graeham Crosby was showing Freddie and Mike Baldwin how to go fast. I remember thinking to myself who the hell is this guy and where did he come from. He won Daytona and he was from NZ. He is on my "A" list.
Picking up on another of the sidetracks, some discussion on this thread has been about relative depths of "talent pools". Don't be fooled by the figures for US racing only: when Hugh Anderson was a world champion for Suzuki on the 50s and 125s during the 1960s, European meetings would routinely get spectator attendances over 100,000, and 200,000 at Assen.
The numbers of competitors in European road racing through all the levels were also very high in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. In NZ, we probably had the highest ever competitor numbers in the 1970s. (Our middleweight Production class then was basically ruled by RD350/400 Yamahas, and we'd usually get several dozen "RD Bunnies" - including me - even at little country race meetings.)
Last edited by PJay; 08-25-2008 at 08:22 PM.
08-25-2008, 08:20 PM
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08-25-2008, 08:35 PM
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PJay..thanks for that input it may help put to rest the depth of field arguments I've been hearing. As I recall (and I was quite young in the 60's) they had alot more than 18 bikes in the field in any given class, and hell they had to push start on top of it all.
These young guys don't seem to have a sense of perspective. Motorcycle racing in Europe has always been a bigger thing than here in the US, bigger fan base, and up until the 90's bigger fields, (I think you can thank/blame the factories for that).
I've been taking it relatively easy on these boys..I wonder if they know who Angel Nieto is or how many championships he won and what classes..I do and yes he was definately an "A" rider.
These young guys don't seem to have a sense of perspective. Motorcycle racing in Europe has always been a bigger thing than here in the US, bigger fan base, and up until the 90's bigger fields, (I think you can thank/blame the factories for that).
I've been taking it relatively easy on these boys..I wonder if they know who Angel Nieto is or how many championships he won and what classes..I do and yes he was definately an "A" rider.
08-25-2008, 08:54 PM
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PJay..thanks for that input it may help put to rest the depth of field arguments I've been hearing. As I recall (and I was quite young in the 60's) they had alot more than 18 bikes in the field in any given class, and hell they had to push start on top of it all.
These young guys don't seem to have a sense of perspective. Motorcycle racing in Europe has always been a bigger thing than here in the US, bigger fan base, and up until the 90's bigger fields, (I think you can thank/blame the factories for that).
I've been taking it relatively easy on these boys..I wonder if they know who Angel Nieto is or how many championships he won and what classes..I do and yes he was definately an "A" rider.
These young guys don't seem to have a sense of perspective. Motorcycle racing in Europe has always been a bigger thing than here in the US, bigger fan base, and up until the 90's bigger fields, (I think you can thank/blame the factories for that).
I've been taking it relatively easy on these boys..I wonder if they know who Angel Nieto is or how many championships he won and what classes..I do and yes he was definately an "A" rider.
When it comes to knowledge of history and details of road racing, I'll defer to guys like you and PJay. My limited interest and knowledge started when Roberts went to Europe which I think was '78. I was on my fourth bike by then so I'm not sure I should be counted as one of the "young guys".
In any case, history and detail aside, I was having fun arguing the concept that advanced technology and increased competition (and I believe adding 300 million Americans to the pool increased the level of international competition) made winning more difficult.
I enjoy your posts and opinions. I've been trying to have some fun, not win a pissing contest.
08-25-2008, 09:03 PM
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Yeah, Croz is still around: I was chatting with him quite recently. He packed up racing when it was no longer fun for him, and too much like a job, and he was also quite distressed as a result of the racing crash when he ran over someone (Virginio Ferrari, I think). Croz was a phenomenon, and one of my most admired riders, for sure. His original NZ mentor Eric Bone still buzzes around on H1 and H2 Kawasakis with us in post classic racing here.
Picking up on another of the sidetracks, some discussion on this thread has been about relative depths of "talent pools". Don't be fooled by the figures for US racing only: when Hugh Anderson was a world champion for Suzuki on the 50s and 125s during the 1960s, European meetings would routinely get spectator attendances over 100,000, and 200,000 at Assen.
The numbers of competitors in European road racing through all the levels were also very high in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. In NZ, we probably had the highest ever competitor numbers in the 1970s. (Our middleweight Production class then was basically ruled by RD350/400 Yamahas, and we'd usually get several dozen "RD Bunnies" - including me - even at little country race meetings.)
Picking up on another of the sidetracks, some discussion on this thread has been about relative depths of "talent pools". Don't be fooled by the figures for US racing only: when Hugh Anderson was a world champion for Suzuki on the 50s and 125s during the 1960s, European meetings would routinely get spectator attendances over 100,000, and 200,000 at Assen.
The numbers of competitors in European road racing through all the levels were also very high in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. In NZ, we probably had the highest ever competitor numbers in the 1970s. (Our middleweight Production class then was basically ruled by RD350/400 Yamahas, and we'd usually get several dozen "RD Bunnies" - including me - even at little country race meetings.)
08-25-2008, 09:13 PM
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HRCA#1;
When it comes to knowledge of history and details of road racing, I'll defer to guys like you and PJay. My limited interest and knowledge started when Roberts went to Europe which I think was '78. I was on my fourth bike by then so I'm not sure I should be counted as one of the "young guys".
In any case, history and detail aside, I was having fun arguing the concept that advanced technology and increased competition (and I believe adding 300 million Americans to the pool increased the level of international competition) made winning more difficult.
I enjoy your posts and opinions. I've been trying to have some fun, not win a pissing contest.
When it comes to knowledge of history and details of road racing, I'll defer to guys like you and PJay. My limited interest and knowledge started when Roberts went to Europe which I think was '78. I was on my fourth bike by then so I'm not sure I should be counted as one of the "young guys".
In any case, history and detail aside, I was having fun arguing the concept that advanced technology and increased competition (and I believe adding 300 million Americans to the pool increased the level of international competition) made winning more difficult.
I enjoy your posts and opinions. I've been trying to have some fun, not win a pissing contest.
Where I disagree with you is in your assumption that "advanced technology" makes todays riders better than yesteryears. I would say if you put those guys that won on those bikes on modern machines they would absolutely spank most if not all the current crop that don't know how to ride an evil handling or underpowered bike on greasy tires. Those guys knew how to do it and rarely complained about it.
08-25-2008, 10:01 PM
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More observations:
Some here may be interested to know that: (a) Barry Sheene rated Angel Nieto as possibly the best racer he ever saw (I know, because Barry told me that himself); (b) Fonsi Nieto is said Angel's nephew, and surely inhabitants here know who Fonsi N is.
The old guys can ride new bikes all right. Watching Hugh Anderson on one of the Brittens is a treat. Guys like he and Ginger Molloy routinely ride new bikes, and I have no doubt would have managed current MotoGP machines had the technology been around back in the day. Incidentally, Hugh raced MX at World level whilst and immediately after being a Suzuki factory road racer.
You had to experience the crap old race tires back in the day to understand how far racing rubber has come. And yet, in modern classic racing on improved old designs, the best riders are not a helluva lot faster around say the Isle of Man than the old guys were in the 60s (and the IoM surface is shitloads better now than then).
I would not be into making comparisons, for all the reasons already rehearsed on this thread. But a great rider is a great rider regardless of the machine, it seems to me. And there will always be new great riders.
One of the measures of a great rider is dominance of the field: the name that everyone thinks of. So, in international road race but before the present period, my greats include:
Charlie Collier, Stanley Woods, Jimmy Guthrie, Geoff Duke, John Surtees, Mike Hailwood, maybe Barry Sheene, of the Brits.
Siegfried Wuentsche, Ernst Henne, Georg Meier, of the Germans.
Tazio Nuvolari, Giacomo Agostini, of the Italians. And, now, definitely Valentino Rossi (whose own father did win a 350 Grand Prix, you know).
KR snr, Pat Hennen, Eddie Lawson, Freddie Spencer of the US contingent.
Wayne Gardner, Mick Doohan of the Aussies.
None of the Kiwis in the sense of that dominance, though in the smaller classes for 3 years Hugh A was definitely the man to beat.
When you think about it, there are dozens of the "A" guys, hundreds of "Bs", and thousands of the rest from the last 100+ years.
And it is worth considering that long-ago past. Imagine the ***** required to race a brakeless one-gear woodtrack racer at over 100mph in 1912. Wearing your leather flying helmet and fabric trousers, and knowing that if you fall off at speed you will probably be impaled by a splinter off the track and die that way. And also knowing that the unknown tire technology just might spit you off by itself.
Makes the current crop look a bit *****, huh?
Some here may be interested to know that: (a) Barry Sheene rated Angel Nieto as possibly the best racer he ever saw (I know, because Barry told me that himself); (b) Fonsi Nieto is said Angel's nephew, and surely inhabitants here know who Fonsi N is.
The old guys can ride new bikes all right. Watching Hugh Anderson on one of the Brittens is a treat. Guys like he and Ginger Molloy routinely ride new bikes, and I have no doubt would have managed current MotoGP machines had the technology been around back in the day. Incidentally, Hugh raced MX at World level whilst and immediately after being a Suzuki factory road racer.
You had to experience the crap old race tires back in the day to understand how far racing rubber has come. And yet, in modern classic racing on improved old designs, the best riders are not a helluva lot faster around say the Isle of Man than the old guys were in the 60s (and the IoM surface is shitloads better now than then).
I would not be into making comparisons, for all the reasons already rehearsed on this thread. But a great rider is a great rider regardless of the machine, it seems to me. And there will always be new great riders.
One of the measures of a great rider is dominance of the field: the name that everyone thinks of. So, in international road race but before the present period, my greats include:
Charlie Collier, Stanley Woods, Jimmy Guthrie, Geoff Duke, John Surtees, Mike Hailwood, maybe Barry Sheene, of the Brits.
Siegfried Wuentsche, Ernst Henne, Georg Meier, of the Germans.
Tazio Nuvolari, Giacomo Agostini, of the Italians. And, now, definitely Valentino Rossi (whose own father did win a 350 Grand Prix, you know).
KR snr, Pat Hennen, Eddie Lawson, Freddie Spencer of the US contingent.
Wayne Gardner, Mick Doohan of the Aussies.
None of the Kiwis in the sense of that dominance, though in the smaller classes for 3 years Hugh A was definitely the man to beat.
When you think about it, there are dozens of the "A" guys, hundreds of "Bs", and thousands of the rest from the last 100+ years.
And it is worth considering that long-ago past. Imagine the ***** required to race a brakeless one-gear woodtrack racer at over 100mph in 1912. Wearing your leather flying helmet and fabric trousers, and knowing that if you fall off at speed you will probably be impaled by a splinter off the track and die that way. And also knowing that the unknown tire technology just might spit you off by itself.
Makes the current crop look a bit *****, huh?
Last edited by PJay; 08-25-2008 at 10:18 PM.
08-25-2008, 10:15 PM
#56
Senior Member
Back Marker
Back Marker
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Russell, Bay of Islands, New Zealand
Posts: 229
Your last paragraph brings back memories. My racing days in the 70's routinely saw 3 wave starts in the 410 production and "cafe" classes most were rd350/400's with a few cb400f's and later cb400 twins, it was a true rockem/sockem class and alot of fun to watch. I was racing 750 and open classes with fewer entries but some serious handlebar banging. It was the best time of my life.
08-25-2008, 11:11 PM
#57
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Menifee, CA
Posts: 1,082
More observations:
Some here may be interested to know that: (a) Barry Sheene rated Angel Nieto as possibly the best racer he ever saw (I know, because Barry told me that himself); (b) Fonsi Nieto is said Angel's nephew, and surely inhabitants here know who Fonsi N is.
The old guys can ride new bikes all right. Watching Hugh Anderson on one of the Brittens is a treat. Guys like he and Ginger Molloy routinely ride new bikes, and I have no doubt would have managed current MotoGP machines had the technology been around back in the day. Incidentally, Hugh raced MX at World level whilst and immediately after being a Suzuki factory road racer.
You had to experience the crap old race tires back in the day to understand how far racing rubber has come. And yet, in modern classic racing on improved old designs, the best riders are not a helluva lot faster around say the Isle of Man than the old guys were in the 60s (and the IoM surface is shitloads better now than then).
I would not be into making comparisons, for all the reasons already rehearsed on this thread. But a great rider is a great rider regardless of the machine, it seems to me. And there will always be new great riders.
One of the measures of a great rider is dominance of the field: the name that everyone thinks of. So, in international road race but before the present period, my greats include:
Charlie Collier, Stanley Woods, Jimmy Guthrie, Geoff Duke, John Surtees, Mike Hailwood, maybe Barry Sheene, of the Brits.
Siegfried Wuentsche, Ernst Henne, Georg Meier, of the Germans.
Tazio Nuvolari, Giacomo Agostini, of the Italians. And, now, definitely Valentino Rossi (whose own father did win a 350 Grand Prix, you know).
KR snr, Pat Hennen, Eddie Lawson, Freddie Spencer of the US contingent.
Wayne Gardner, Mick Doohan of the Aussies.
None of the Kiwis in the sense of that dominance, though in the smaller classes for 3 years Hugh A was definitely the man to beat.
When you think about it, there are dozens of the "A" guys, hundreds of "Bs", and thousands of the rest from the last 100+ years.
And it is worth considering that long-ago past. Imagine the ***** required to race a brakeless one-gear woodtrack racer at over 100mph in 1912. Wearing your leather flying helmet and fabric trousers, and knowing that if you fall off at speed you will probably be impaled by a splinter off the track and die that way. And also knowing that the unknown tire technology just might spit you off by itself.
Makes the current crop look a bit *****, huh?
Some here may be interested to know that: (a) Barry Sheene rated Angel Nieto as possibly the best racer he ever saw (I know, because Barry told me that himself); (b) Fonsi Nieto is said Angel's nephew, and surely inhabitants here know who Fonsi N is.
The old guys can ride new bikes all right. Watching Hugh Anderson on one of the Brittens is a treat. Guys like he and Ginger Molloy routinely ride new bikes, and I have no doubt would have managed current MotoGP machines had the technology been around back in the day. Incidentally, Hugh raced MX at World level whilst and immediately after being a Suzuki factory road racer.
You had to experience the crap old race tires back in the day to understand how far racing rubber has come. And yet, in modern classic racing on improved old designs, the best riders are not a helluva lot faster around say the Isle of Man than the old guys were in the 60s (and the IoM surface is shitloads better now than then).
I would not be into making comparisons, for all the reasons already rehearsed on this thread. But a great rider is a great rider regardless of the machine, it seems to me. And there will always be new great riders.
One of the measures of a great rider is dominance of the field: the name that everyone thinks of. So, in international road race but before the present period, my greats include:
Charlie Collier, Stanley Woods, Jimmy Guthrie, Geoff Duke, John Surtees, Mike Hailwood, maybe Barry Sheene, of the Brits.
Siegfried Wuentsche, Ernst Henne, Georg Meier, of the Germans.
Tazio Nuvolari, Giacomo Agostini, of the Italians. And, now, definitely Valentino Rossi (whose own father did win a 350 Grand Prix, you know).
KR snr, Pat Hennen, Eddie Lawson, Freddie Spencer of the US contingent.
Wayne Gardner, Mick Doohan of the Aussies.
None of the Kiwis in the sense of that dominance, though in the smaller classes for 3 years Hugh A was definitely the man to beat.
When you think about it, there are dozens of the "A" guys, hundreds of "Bs", and thousands of the rest from the last 100+ years.
And it is worth considering that long-ago past. Imagine the ***** required to race a brakeless one-gear woodtrack racer at over 100mph in 1912. Wearing your leather flying helmet and fabric trousers, and knowing that if you fall off at speed you will probably be impaled by a splinter off the track and die that way. And also knowing that the unknown tire technology just might spit you off by itself.
Makes the current crop look a bit *****, huh?
08-26-2008, 12:29 AM
#58
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Way Out West
Posts: 2,547
Did someone mention *****?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF2hz...eature=related
YouTube - WORLD SUPERBIKE 1996 GOBERT SLIGHT PHILLIP ISLAND PART TWO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF2hz...eature=related
YouTube - WORLD SUPERBIKE 1996 GOBERT SLIGHT PHILLIP ISLAND PART TWO
08-26-2008, 01:41 PM
#59
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Well, Gobert are one of the rear wheel stearing riders...
What others considers out of control he considers normal.... Haga is one of the others... Altough he had a tendency to push it that little bit beyond the laws of physics...
What others considers out of control he considers normal.... Haga is one of the others... Altough he had a tendency to push it that little bit beyond the laws of physics...
08-26-2008, 02:09 PM
#60
Senior Member
Superstock
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 312
HRCA#1 :
It’s interesting you brought up Angel Nieto because I never think of him as a possible best of all time in spite of the fact that he had somewhere around a hundred wins and ten championships. This is because he rode 50cc and 125cc bikes; still he was amazing. He did loose his temper like no one I have ever seen, I have a series of pictures of him approaching La Souce hair pin at Spa Francochamps in 1975 riding a Minarelli where he is literally trying to kick another rider off his bike (he came second and was PISSED). JIM
It’s interesting you brought up Angel Nieto because I never think of him as a possible best of all time in spite of the fact that he had somewhere around a hundred wins and ten championships. This is because he rode 50cc and 125cc bikes; still he was amazing. He did loose his temper like no one I have ever seen, I have a series of pictures of him approaching La Souce hair pin at Spa Francochamps in 1975 riding a Minarelli where he is literally trying to kick another rider off his bike (he came second and was PISSED). JIM
Last edited by Jim TT; 08-27-2008 at 06:58 AM.
