American made(assembled) V Twin sportbike
07-14-2010 | 12:37 PM
#33
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,090
From: Big Lick
Too many bikes, too little money. 
I used to have a 650 and they are fun bikes to ride. I got rid of it only because I got a deal on an i-4 600 that I couldn't pass up. Other than the SH, a new version of a v-2 in 1000-1200 ccs would be great. There's a couple already on the market though, like the Aprilia Tuono. However, my interest is also drawn to the new HD XR1200, Honda's VFR1200, Buell 1125R, and waiting to see what Eric Buell comes up with once his penance time from HD is done next year. This Fischer in a 1000 cc configuration would just make a difficult decision that much harder. :-o
I used to have a 650 and they are fun bikes to ride. I got rid of it only because I got a deal on an i-4 600 that I couldn't pass up. Other than the SH, a new version of a v-2 in 1000-1200 ccs would be great. There's a couple already on the market though, like the Aprilia Tuono. However, my interest is also drawn to the new HD XR1200, Honda's VFR1200, Buell 1125R, and waiting to see what Eric Buell comes up with once his penance time from HD is done next year. This Fischer in a 1000 cc configuration would just make a difficult decision that much harder. :-o
07-14-2010 | 12:53 PM
#34
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 617
From: In a van down by the river (I wish!)
Honda did come out with something like this that was capable of making around 70HP and weighed 390lbs or so. It was called a Hawk GT and it floated like a lead boat. (I still miss my Hawk.) (Go ahead and insert CB-1 in here if you want, too.) That was another age, though, and I agree with cornandp that there is a market for something like this… but it needs to be bumped up to 800 ccs and stripped down.
This would be the American version of the Street Triple or (in softer Tiger clothes) F800. You go modular all over this like Triumph did in the ‘90s and offer three versions: Sport, streetfighter / café racer and faux adventure-sport (Tiger / F800 / Scrambler). Buell is gone now and somebody bought those bikes, and it wasn’t for the HD engine: If was for the fact they were made in America and were quirky, our Ducati. You know, without the class or heritage stuff.
The Ninja 250 is a nice little bike, but Kawasaki needs to update it. This is true of all the beginner machines lout there. They were fine in 1985, but 1985 was a LONG time ago. How much effort would it be to bolt thicker forks on those bikes? Probability less than re-skinning them, like Kawasaki just did to the Ninja 250.
This would be the American version of the Street Triple or (in softer Tiger clothes) F800. You go modular all over this like Triumph did in the ‘90s and offer three versions: Sport, streetfighter / café racer and faux adventure-sport (Tiger / F800 / Scrambler). Buell is gone now and somebody bought those bikes, and it wasn’t for the HD engine: If was for the fact they were made in America and were quirky, our Ducati. You know, without the class or heritage stuff.
The Ninja 250 is a nice little bike, but Kawasaki needs to update it. This is true of all the beginner machines lout there. They were fine in 1985, but 1985 was a LONG time ago. How much effort would it be to bolt thicker forks on those bikes? Probability less than re-skinning them, like Kawasaki just did to the Ninja 250.
Last edited by Crashrat; 07-14-2010 at 01:01 PM.
07-14-2010 | 01:31 PM
#35
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 338
From: Colorado
Buell was quirky. But Buell had something that this bike doesn't. Innovation. This bike uses the same components as a lot of other bikes. What made the buel exotic is the fact that they did everything different. Fluids were stored in the frame and rear swing. the front brakes were completely different. And while Buell never built a bike that could dominate, they were never a cheap copy of some other bike. That is why they sold. This bike is good looking with decent components at a low price. Maybe it will sell well but it will never be lusted over like buells were.
07-14-2010 | 02:03 PM
#36
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SuperSport
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 617
From: In a van down by the river (I wish!)
Wow, Buells were lusted over? Gosh, I owned one… My brother owns one… I had no idea! See, because when I rode my Buell, mostly I got sh*t from both the sport bike riders and the HD guys. Gosh.
The original Buells were hot-rod Harleys with steel spaghetti frames. Those were the bikes that established the brand. The XBs are relatively new as far as the line goes. Buell was different from the start, sure, but my point was that people will buy an alternative to a Jap bike from an American company only if it’s quirky… Innovation is great, but the important thing is to be different.
Think Ducati: For the most part – and excluding top-tier bikes – they just don’t compete with the Japanese. A SV will smoke everything up to and including a Monster 900 (not sure about the new 1000s), but Ducati is doing fine. In a lot of ways Triumph is an English Honda – frame-proof suit activate! – but it sells well because it’s different.
This thing is a 650 v-twin. That’s common in your world? Because searching back in my mind, I can think of only three 650 v-twins (excluding variants like the Wee-Strom and Transalp) sold in the States in the last 30, including this machine. How many of those had USD forks and top-shelf brakes…? Under the seat exhaust…? With that made in America tag? Huh.
The original Buells were hot-rod Harleys with steel spaghetti frames. Those were the bikes that established the brand. The XBs are relatively new as far as the line goes. Buell was different from the start, sure, but my point was that people will buy an alternative to a Jap bike from an American company only if it’s quirky… Innovation is great, but the important thing is to be different.
Think Ducati: For the most part – and excluding top-tier bikes – they just don’t compete with the Japanese. A SV will smoke everything up to and including a Monster 900 (not sure about the new 1000s), but Ducati is doing fine. In a lot of ways Triumph is an English Honda – frame-proof suit activate! – but it sells well because it’s different.
This thing is a 650 v-twin. That’s common in your world? Because searching back in my mind, I can think of only three 650 v-twins (excluding variants like the Wee-Strom and Transalp) sold in the States in the last 30, including this machine. How many of those had USD forks and top-shelf brakes…? Under the seat exhaust…? With that made in America tag? Huh.
07-14-2010 | 02:16 PM
#37
Thread Starter
Duc Hawk
SuperSport
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 691
From: Malibu's canyons
I've got a stock NT650 Hawk GT and about to pick up my old tuned one from a buddy. It might replace the SuperHawk for me in the canyons. And sure you can update the suspension of the GT and mod it's engine to get 70hp from it, but it was not that way from the factory. It was more like 40hp in stock form with sad shock. But you have to love the super balanced package and then oversized forks for the segment. But what I was wanting Honda to make is something like this Fischer with all the good bits already on the bike for a decent price. Who knows if this thing takes off they just might follow suit.
Last edited by Moto Man; 07-14-2010 at 02:21 PM.
07-14-2010 | 02:26 PM
#38
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 617
From: In a van down by the river (I wish!)
Yep, I think 70 was where it exploded -- there's a guy on the Hawk list that builds them up to that point... I think his name was Hord. Yup, here he is:
http://www.hordpower.com/
Mine had a F3 front, VFR rear rim and Fox shock. I didn't do a think to the engine -- why bother? It was the best bike I've ever ridden for the tight stuff in Western North Carolina.
http://www.hordpower.com/
Mine had a F3 front, VFR rear rim and Fox shock. I didn't do a think to the engine -- why bother? It was the best bike I've ever ridden for the tight stuff in Western North Carolina.
07-14-2010 | 02:28 PM
#39
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 338
From: Colorado
Buells and Ducati's are lusted over. Like I said with Buell They do things differently. Same with Ducati. Ducatis are extremely unique. One sided swing arms skinny tube fames and laser precise handling. This bike has a nice rear shock but has a no name USD fork. My friend has a chinese pitbike with a USD fork on it and it is garbage. I didn't say this is a crap bike. I just said there are a lot of bikes in what appear to be the same class that will far out perform this. Bikes that cost more because they are worth more.
07-14-2010 | 02:54 PM
#40
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 617
From: In a van down by the river (I wish!)
Look, you don’t mate crap 43mm forks to an Ohlins shock and Brembo calipers. It would surprise me if these were cheap Chinese units.
I can point you to the sales figures on Buells. It wouldn’t surprise me if they sold fewer units – total – than Suzuki sells SVs in a year. If you go to a HD dealer that still has a Buell (and there’s one right down the street from me) you can probably pick up a new model (well a 09) for less than a 1988 Virago. They were never lusted after. Never. Ever. Ever. Some people liked them – I liked mine – but there was a vast moment in history where you couldn’t give a Buell away and that moment includes right now.
Monsters are the best selling Ducatis and most of them don’t have SSS. (Hell, I think only two or three Ducks have had SSS.) Ducati has maintained its brand and are exclusive, but I wouldn’t say they’re rare. I’ve never lived anywhere where a dealership was more than 100 miles away and the low-end Monsters are in SV650 land. Having owned bikes like the Hawk GT we were just discussing and ridden Monsters and 900CRs, I don’t think they handle any better than a well-sorted Jap bike.
These are brands. If this bike had a brand, you would be gaga over it, trust me. As far as the spec racing goes, what do you think will outperforms this bike in its market and where? I can bet you that it will run away from bigger bikes in the places I like to play.
I can point you to the sales figures on Buells. It wouldn’t surprise me if they sold fewer units – total – than Suzuki sells SVs in a year. If you go to a HD dealer that still has a Buell (and there’s one right down the street from me) you can probably pick up a new model (well a 09) for less than a 1988 Virago. They were never lusted after. Never. Ever. Ever. Some people liked them – I liked mine – but there was a vast moment in history where you couldn’t give a Buell away and that moment includes right now.
Monsters are the best selling Ducatis and most of them don’t have SSS. (Hell, I think only two or three Ducks have had SSS.) Ducati has maintained its brand and are exclusive, but I wouldn’t say they’re rare. I’ve never lived anywhere where a dealership was more than 100 miles away and the low-end Monsters are in SV650 land. Having owned bikes like the Hawk GT we were just discussing and ridden Monsters and 900CRs, I don’t think they handle any better than a well-sorted Jap bike.
These are brands. If this bike had a brand, you would be gaga over it, trust me. As far as the spec racing goes, what do you think will outperforms this bike in its market and where? I can bet you that it will run away from bigger bikes in the places I like to play.
07-14-2010 | 04:54 PM
#41
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,611
From: Belgium, WI
http://www.honda.co.jp/CB400SF/
http://www.honda.co.jp/VTR/
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/bi...-2004-current/
http://www.kawasaki-motors.com/model/d-tracker_x/
http://www.kawasaki-motors.com/model/ninja400r/
http://www.yamaha-motor.co.nz/produc...rt/09-yzf-r125
I won't quote anyone, but I can honestly say that the only way that a beginning rider is going max out the performance of a motorcycle (be it whatever displacement) is if they only consider acceleration and top speed. How many beginning riders that you know have maxed out the capability of the brakes and tires in cornering and stopping and can do it with discernible confidence and skill? I can't, and I have ridden 40,000 miles. Maybe I am the beginner. I don't think a beginner needs to start with a bike where maxing out its speed is easier than maxing out its handling capabilities.
If this company is missing the point by putting TOO good of components on an SV 650 motor, why are the sv riders doing exactly what we do? They are putting inverted forks from gsxr600's, modding the rear shocks, lighter wheels, etc etc etc.
And if you like ducati, have one throw a timing belt. Tell me how much you like it when your $2k deep in parts.
http://www.honda.co.jp/VTR/
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/bi...-2004-current/
http://www.kawasaki-motors.com/model/d-tracker_x/
http://www.kawasaki-motors.com/model/ninja400r/
http://www.yamaha-motor.co.nz/produc...rt/09-yzf-r125
I won't quote anyone, but I can honestly say that the only way that a beginning rider is going max out the performance of a motorcycle (be it whatever displacement) is if they only consider acceleration and top speed. How many beginning riders that you know have maxed out the capability of the brakes and tires in cornering and stopping and can do it with discernible confidence and skill? I can't, and I have ridden 40,000 miles. Maybe I am the beginner. I don't think a beginner needs to start with a bike where maxing out its speed is easier than maxing out its handling capabilities.
If this company is missing the point by putting TOO good of components on an SV 650 motor, why are the sv riders doing exactly what we do? They are putting inverted forks from gsxr600's, modding the rear shocks, lighter wheels, etc etc etc.
And if you like ducati, have one throw a timing belt. Tell me how much you like it when your $2k deep in parts.
07-14-2010 | 05:00 PM
#42
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 338
From: Colorado
I'm not the one that used Buell as an example of slower bikes selling. I just said they are desirable. Okay, lust was a stretch. It would be more accurate to say they had very strong cult status. And Monsters sell for so many other reasons besides having 80 hp. SV's yes but Monsters no. People buy Monsters because it is a more affordable way to get a Ducati.
And just to give you one example of a bike that would DESTROY the Fischer in every area and is marketed to the same crowd, the CBR600RR. They are both full fairing, undertail exhaust, inverted fork replica racers. Now the CBR is about 1700 bucks more but you get Honda reliability and dealerships and a lot more power. And if you think that price gap is to large to compare, keep in mind that almost every motorcycle magazine compares the Duc 1198 Corse to the Cbr1000rr and it costs 100% more money. You cannot compare this bike to the SV. It doesn't even have a rear seat.
And just to give you one example of a bike that would DESTROY the Fischer in every area and is marketed to the same crowd, the CBR600RR. They are both full fairing, undertail exhaust, inverted fork replica racers. Now the CBR is about 1700 bucks more but you get Honda reliability and dealerships and a lot more power. And if you think that price gap is to large to compare, keep in mind that almost every motorcycle magazine compares the Duc 1198 Corse to the Cbr1000rr and it costs 100% more money. You cannot compare this bike to the SV. It doesn't even have a rear seat.
07-14-2010 | 05:50 PM
#44
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,451
From: San Clemente, CA
While a number of you seem to be drooling over this bike, hasn't anyone noticed that the opening post listed it as carbureted?
And what's with the "V" notch in the windscreen? Is that for aerodynamics?
And what's with the "V" notch in the windscreen? Is that for aerodynamics?
07-14-2010 | 05:55 PM
#45
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,611
From: Belgium, WI
Riding within your abilities is very under rated. I was pulling out of a gas station (had to cross two lanes to make left) and hit diesel fuel half way through my turn. I did a two wheel slide across a lane of traffic. Is that beginner capabilities? No. Is it riding within my abilities and the conditions? yeah. I am sure that I could make myself far less comfortable with how I ride. I could also make myself far less comfortable with the condition of my vitals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWaq0zOaAVU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHC37...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5xgM...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oemeurLbvTo
Well, I would say that these skills are all doable on any bike with capable handling. I cant do these things. the last I definitely cannot do and I am okay with that. I just doubt that most riders can do this. That is okay, but they haven't maxed out the capabilities of the bike they ride.
One to add to the list of videos (if we had it on tape). Customer brought gl1800 in with a problem. It would shut off when he made a u turn. My boss asked if we would be able to duplicate the problem, to which he replied no. He then went on to show my boss his 25mph parking lot space uturn which "G" loaded the rollover sensor and shut the bike off. He just laughed and went home after his joke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWaq0zOaAVU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHC37...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5xgM...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oemeurLbvTo
Well, I would say that these skills are all doable on any bike with capable handling. I cant do these things. the last I definitely cannot do and I am okay with that. I just doubt that most riders can do this. That is okay, but they haven't maxed out the capabilities of the bike they ride.
One to add to the list of videos (if we had it on tape). Customer brought gl1800 in with a problem. It would shut off when he made a u turn. My boss asked if we would be able to duplicate the problem, to which he replied no. He then went on to show my boss his 25mph parking lot space uturn which "G" loaded the rollover sensor and shut the bike off. He just laughed and went home after his joke.
07-14-2010 | 06:18 PM
#46
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 617
From: In a van down by the river (I wish!)
It occurs to me that you are probably arguing Tweety’s point better than even he could have.
You’re really just reading off the specifications. (“Hey, it’s got forks, just like X, plastic, just like Y, and under tail exhaust just like Z!”) I doubt this is how the bike is being marketed. By your logic we should all be on CBR600RRs since almost all bikes share your criteria to some degree. (It would certainly "destroy" the VTR in any of the contests that seem to matter to you.)
This isn’t how bikes are marketed. This bike is being aimed at riders who put handling above everything else – PROBABLY a person a lot like the guy I described above who would own a VTR250, maybe the sort of the type of guy who trailers his RS250 to Deal’s Gap or does regular track days. That is not your typical CBR600RR rider.
This bike PROBABLY competes best with the Ducati 848 (or, more likely, the old Ducati 748), though it's a budget version of the Duck. Both bikes would lose in a drag race against a CBR600RR – or a 1986 FJ1200! – but that’s really not what they’re about. Bikes like this come stock with the suspension bits CBR riders put on their machines after a few days at the track.
Not everyone is concerned about quarter-mile times. Really. Think about that for just a second.
To be honest, if you gave me an I4 I would sell it and get a SV or something like this machine. I have zero interest in owning a 600-class sport bike. (As a primary bike.) I would hazard a guess that most of the people on this forum feel the same way or we’d own CBRs instead of VTRs.
There’s a qualitative difference here that is difficult to explain. Maybe it’s an age thing – I have owned very fast bikes, but the ones I remember best, the ones I loved, were actually some of the slowest ones. Those were the ones that taught me how to control the bike. The fast ones were fun at first, but (for me) speed gets old pretty fast.
Now if I was marketing this machine, I would aim it, not at the SV or the CBR, but at the 848, F800, Street Speed and copy the modular approach Triumph had in the 1990s. Really. Someone hire me to market this bike.
You’re really just reading off the specifications. (“Hey, it’s got forks, just like X, plastic, just like Y, and under tail exhaust just like Z!”) I doubt this is how the bike is being marketed. By your logic we should all be on CBR600RRs since almost all bikes share your criteria to some degree. (It would certainly "destroy" the VTR in any of the contests that seem to matter to you.)
This isn’t how bikes are marketed. This bike is being aimed at riders who put handling above everything else – PROBABLY a person a lot like the guy I described above who would own a VTR250, maybe the sort of the type of guy who trailers his RS250 to Deal’s Gap or does regular track days. That is not your typical CBR600RR rider.
This bike PROBABLY competes best with the Ducati 848 (or, more likely, the old Ducati 748), though it's a budget version of the Duck. Both bikes would lose in a drag race against a CBR600RR – or a 1986 FJ1200! – but that’s really not what they’re about. Bikes like this come stock with the suspension bits CBR riders put on their machines after a few days at the track.
Not everyone is concerned about quarter-mile times. Really. Think about that for just a second.
To be honest, if you gave me an I4 I would sell it and get a SV or something like this machine. I have zero interest in owning a 600-class sport bike. (As a primary bike.) I would hazard a guess that most of the people on this forum feel the same way or we’d own CBRs instead of VTRs.
There’s a qualitative difference here that is difficult to explain. Maybe it’s an age thing – I have owned very fast bikes, but the ones I remember best, the ones I loved, were actually some of the slowest ones. Those were the ones that taught me how to control the bike. The fast ones were fun at first, but (for me) speed gets old pretty fast.
Now if I was marketing this machine, I would aim it, not at the SV or the CBR, but at the 848, F800, Street Speed and copy the modular approach Triumph had in the 1990s. Really. Someone hire me to market this bike.
07-14-2010 | 06:26 PM
#47
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 617
From: In a van down by the river (I wish!)
Oh, and I’m not sure I understand (or agree) with your comment about Monsters. I’ve been on a few and they seemed like very nice bikes. The folks who owned them didn’t want 916s; they wanted Monsters. The person mistaking a Monster for a 916 probably should stick to his automobile.
I can’t say why people buy Monster – what am I, telepathic? – but from my perspective, based on rides and hanging with people who have owned them, they’re nice machines. They’re on my list of bikes that I’ll someday own, but the SH is taking longer to outgrow than I thought it would!
I can’t say why people buy Monster – what am I, telepathic? – but from my perspective, based on rides and hanging with people who have owned them, they’re nice machines. They’re on my list of bikes that I’ll someday own, but the SH is taking longer to outgrow than I thought it would!
07-14-2010 | 06:35 PM
#48
Thread Starter
Duc Hawk
SuperSport
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 691
From: Malibu's canyons
And I'm drooling still. It makes more power than the similar FI equipped SV650 anyhow. Carbs are a bitch but they seem to be working for the SuperHawk. In the video they say they are planning a FI version of the Fischer (but I'm sure they need the capital to make that happen) and that they wanted to get this to market with carbs as a 1st step.
Last edited by Moto Man; 07-14-2010 at 06:40 PM.
07-14-2010 | 06:40 PM
#49
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,611
From: Belgium, WI
The only thing that you have to do with this bike is make sure that if the engine goes bust, you put the real deal suzuki in, you need to get the suspension upgrade right off the bat (that upgrade comes with 44 less pounds), and that you get full leathers with speed hump and knee pucks, so da biatches know you mean business. okay, the last was a poser statement. Maybe you could get your quarter mile time and trap speed crayoned on the screen so you don't have to drag race anyone, you can just bench race them. "Ah ****, look doood, my bikes potential 1/4 mile time is way faster than his. He must be thinking, I wish I had a bandana like the dude on the gsxr750 next to me. yeah, I look good."
07-14-2010 | 06:52 PM
#50
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 617
From: In a van down by the river (I wish!)
Yep, budget 848 in the same way as a SV is a budget monster 800. Really, stop looking at the price and ask yourself what a bike with this lvl of aftermarket goodies reminds you of... It's not a CBR or SV650.
Naw, I don't know. I agree with the kid, though: If this is aimed at the SV it's way off. SVs are still mostly going to newbies and commuters and this thing is too tech heavy. As far as I know, the SVS never sold very well because it took away the qualities that newer riders enjoyed (high bars, mostly) and replaced them with things they didn't need (low bars, mostly). Those aren't the same people at all.
They already build a SV clone and that hasn't exactly taken off. 'could also be that you need to take Fisher at his word and say he's trying to build the highest quality bike possible without a marketing plan. That doesn't sound promising. Even Buell had a marketing plan.
Naw, I don't know. I agree with the kid, though: If this is aimed at the SV it's way off. SVs are still mostly going to newbies and commuters and this thing is too tech heavy. As far as I know, the SVS never sold very well because it took away the qualities that newer riders enjoyed (high bars, mostly) and replaced them with things they didn't need (low bars, mostly). Those aren't the same people at all.
They already build a SV clone and that hasn't exactly taken off. 'could also be that you need to take Fisher at his word and say he's trying to build the highest quality bike possible without a marketing plan. That doesn't sound promising. Even Buell had a marketing plan.
07-15-2010 | 07:24 AM
#51
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,216
From: Westerly, RI
I'll say this again. I didn't like the 600RR I rode, and it was a former track bike returned to the street. Yeah, it had straightaway power, and it had it's track suspension, but you had to be over 7K for the damn thing to come to life. Then it was hold on till redline.
The guys I know that have these bikes (CBRs, GSX-Rs, R6s), they can all ride fast in a straight line and do wheelies. That's what they think it's about.
I'd take this bike over a RR/SS, run around them through the corners and grin all the way.
I'd take this bike as a learners bike for my son when he's old enough.
I've got between 90-110 HP(depends who you talk to, at the flywheel or tire, you guess) on the SH, it's plenty. I've got an upgraded front end, upgraded rear shock and Pilot Power 2CTs, and I'd bet I still don't ride the bike to the fullest of it's potential. I've hit redline in 6th gear (15/43 sprockets), not hard to do, but where is the skill in that?
I'm on Tweety's side of the road. Americans are power hungry. We don't need it, we just want it.
I'll relate this story. My buddy saved me THOUSANDS of dollars on my Jeep. I'd say "I want this and that and that over there" to put on my Jeep to go Rock crawling. His reply was "Do your abilities as a driver exceed the abilities of the Jeep?" "NO" "Then you don't need it do you?" "No" Eventually, my abilities started to exceed the Jeep, so I slowly added.
Ask yourself. Do your abilities as a rider exceed 80HP? Be honest. There are may be a dozen or so people on here, who race on the track regularly, whose abilities may exceed 80HP. For the majority of us, our skills don't require it. Want proof? I read somewhere that Rossi was asked where his skills lie on a scale of 1-10, he answered 7. Hmm, makes me feel like a beginner.
So do any of us really "need" an RR? We may want, and may think that our skill is worthy of an RR, but truly?
Anyhow, off my soap box.
This looks like a good bike. Definitely something good to start on.
The guys I know that have these bikes (CBRs, GSX-Rs, R6s), they can all ride fast in a straight line and do wheelies. That's what they think it's about.
I'd take this bike over a RR/SS, run around them through the corners and grin all the way.
I'd take this bike as a learners bike for my son when he's old enough.
I've got between 90-110 HP(depends who you talk to, at the flywheel or tire, you guess) on the SH, it's plenty. I've got an upgraded front end, upgraded rear shock and Pilot Power 2CTs, and I'd bet I still don't ride the bike to the fullest of it's potential. I've hit redline in 6th gear (15/43 sprockets), not hard to do, but where is the skill in that?
I'm on Tweety's side of the road. Americans are power hungry. We don't need it, we just want it.
I'll relate this story. My buddy saved me THOUSANDS of dollars on my Jeep. I'd say "I want this and that and that over there" to put on my Jeep to go Rock crawling. His reply was "Do your abilities as a driver exceed the abilities of the Jeep?" "NO" "Then you don't need it do you?" "No" Eventually, my abilities started to exceed the Jeep, so I slowly added.
Ask yourself. Do your abilities as a rider exceed 80HP? Be honest. There are may be a dozen or so people on here, who race on the track regularly, whose abilities may exceed 80HP. For the majority of us, our skills don't require it. Want proof? I read somewhere that Rossi was asked where his skills lie on a scale of 1-10, he answered 7. Hmm, makes me feel like a beginner.
So do any of us really "need" an RR? We may want, and may think that our skill is worthy of an RR, but truly?
Anyhow, off my soap box.
This looks like a good bike. Definitely something good to start on.
07-15-2010 | 08:37 AM
#52
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 338
From: Colorado
of course we bought superhawks over cbrs. The superhawk is more upright with similar power and more comfort. The two have very little in common. They were built for completely different purposes. The Fischer has almost nothing in common with the SV besides similar power. The riding position is different, the look is different, and there is no back seat. I dont know how you can tell me this serves the same purpose. The lack of back seat alone makes it more geared toward the track rider. And i didnt compare it to x,y,and z i compared all the components to the same bike.
07-15-2010 | 09:03 AM
#53
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
Actually in stock form the VTR isn't much more upright than the CBR, very marginally at best... The leg position is better though, and the passenger has a bit more comfort...
Similar power? Where? The CBR 600RR outpaces the VTR in just about any performance test you can think of on pure numbers... Except low/medium speed roll-ons... Not in real world riding conditions though, but those are apparently irrelevant in most of the reasoning in this thread... The CBR 1000RR isn't in the same league...
So which CBR are we talking about? The CBR 125R? CBR 250/250RR? Since those are the only newer CBR's the VTR can challenge on specs...
The SV and Fischer not only have similar power (and engine characteristic, which is very important) But they are both very nimble, light and flickable (going by impression, not test)... Many SV ovners like VTR owners stick a lower belly on and complete the fairing, many upgrade the forks and other parts, making them into what the Fischer is...
So if the Fisher is a complete package of what it takes a SV owner considerable knowledge, time and money to make his SV into, why not choose the Fischer?
Similar power? Where? The CBR 600RR outpaces the VTR in just about any performance test you can think of on pure numbers... Except low/medium speed roll-ons... Not in real world riding conditions though, but those are apparently irrelevant in most of the reasoning in this thread... The CBR 1000RR isn't in the same league...
So which CBR are we talking about? The CBR 125R? CBR 250/250RR? Since those are the only newer CBR's the VTR can challenge on specs...
The SV and Fischer not only have similar power (and engine characteristic, which is very important) But they are both very nimble, light and flickable (going by impression, not test)... Many SV ovners like VTR owners stick a lower belly on and complete the fairing, many upgrade the forks and other parts, making them into what the Fischer is...
So if the Fisher is a complete package of what it takes a SV owner considerable knowledge, time and money to make his SV into, why not choose the Fischer?
07-15-2010 | 09:21 AM
#54
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 617
From: In a van down by the river (I wish!)
I’m not sure who you are arguing with at this point, PW.
The SH was a hyper sport bike when it was released. It competed in these same circles. The only reason it doesn’t now is because it’s old.
Someone else (RK1?) said the Fisher competes against the SV or is aimed at that market. I’m not sure, but I don’t think I agree. I think that Suzuki would have done some market search and released a bike like this if there was a call for it within the context of a SV, if that makes sense.
It could be that there is nothing in this niche or that Fisher has his cart ahead of his horse.
It would be suicide to market this against the I4 crowd because, as you’ve demonstrated and Eric S. has mentioned, all those people do is compare numbers. Triumph played that losing game for years with I4s until they woke the f*ck up and developed a cheater I3 that was different.
I submit that a 650/800 twin would be an even better cheater and would sell well, even against CBRs if it was marketed right. It probably still wouldn’t be as fast, but the power delivery would be different, the package slicker, and the niche appeal much better than an I4 sport bike.
Who would buy it? Again – Ducati people. Suzuki people (especially GSXR people) are mesmerized by the spec sheet. That’s not the market they want to touch. They want older riders who are more interested in sharpening their skills. You’d have to crunch numbers to see if that group has enough buying power, but that’s the fit I see.
The SH was a hyper sport bike when it was released. It competed in these same circles. The only reason it doesn’t now is because it’s old.
Someone else (RK1?) said the Fisher competes against the SV or is aimed at that market. I’m not sure, but I don’t think I agree. I think that Suzuki would have done some market search and released a bike like this if there was a call for it within the context of a SV, if that makes sense.
It could be that there is nothing in this niche or that Fisher has his cart ahead of his horse.
It would be suicide to market this against the I4 crowd because, as you’ve demonstrated and Eric S. has mentioned, all those people do is compare numbers. Triumph played that losing game for years with I4s until they woke the f*ck up and developed a cheater I3 that was different.
I submit that a 650/800 twin would be an even better cheater and would sell well, even against CBRs if it was marketed right. It probably still wouldn’t be as fast, but the power delivery would be different, the package slicker, and the niche appeal much better than an I4 sport bike.
Who would buy it? Again – Ducati people. Suzuki people (especially GSXR people) are mesmerized by the spec sheet. That’s not the market they want to touch. They want older riders who are more interested in sharpening their skills. You’d have to crunch numbers to see if that group has enough buying power, but that’s the fit I see.
07-15-2010 | 09:35 AM
#55
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 617
From: In a van down by the river (I wish!)
I think that’s an interesting question, Tweety. Does Suzuki still even make the SV650S? They came out with that horrible Tampax-colored SV clone a few years back, but I haven’t seen a SVS on the road in five years or more. Could be that they’re dividing the market – offering an even better beginner bike and an even sharper SVS – in which case…
Naw, I’m sticking with my poor man’s Duck theory… which a SV is (sort of) so we’re probably splitting hairs. I just see this bike as a nudge closer to a Ducati than a Suzuki and know that it will die if it’s thrown into a cage match of I4 squids.
You know Buell started with a racer engine (I think the RG250 two-stroke powerplant), then had to turn to HD sportster because he couldn’t get his hands on anything else. I wonder if this is the same sort of thing, where the weak point – the engine, which underperforms even compared to SVsv (though this thing should weigh less) – becomes an endearing point of the bike. In a way, it’s these limitations to design that forced Buell to be innovative.
Fisher doesn’t have to make as many concessions, though.
Naw, I’m sticking with my poor man’s Duck theory… which a SV is (sort of) so we’re probably splitting hairs. I just see this bike as a nudge closer to a Ducati than a Suzuki and know that it will die if it’s thrown into a cage match of I4 squids.
You know Buell started with a racer engine (I think the RG250 two-stroke powerplant), then had to turn to HD sportster because he couldn’t get his hands on anything else. I wonder if this is the same sort of thing, where the weak point – the engine, which underperforms even compared to SVsv (though this thing should weigh less) – becomes an endearing point of the bike. In a way, it’s these limitations to design that forced Buell to be innovative.
Fisher doesn’t have to make as many concessions, though.
07-15-2010 | 02:28 PM
#56
Senior Member
Superstock
Superstock
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 321
I hope this bike has success, it really does fill a hole in the American sport bike market that's been there for a long time. The SV650 is decent but I always thought a version with better suspension would sell.
If this figure is accurate then this bike is nearly 100lbs lighter than a Superhawk so 80hp will be PLENTY:
Actual Dry Weight, MRX 382 lbs / 166.47 kg
FWIW, Hyosung makes the engines for Suzuki's SV650. They make engines for many of the bigger companies.
If this figure is accurate then this bike is nearly 100lbs lighter than a Superhawk so 80hp will be PLENTY:
Actual Dry Weight, MRX 382 lbs / 166.47 kg
FWIW, Hyosung makes the engines for Suzuki's SV650. They make engines for many of the bigger companies.
Last edited by davidka; 07-15-2010 at 02:32 PM.
07-15-2010 | 02:51 PM
#57
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 617
From: In a van down by the river (I wish!)
I’m inclined to believe the weight figure because they bolden ACTUAL. That’s what an easy mark I am. If that is accurate, it will be the lightest production sport bike I’ve seen (in the US) since… I don’t know, the RS250?
I don’t think Hyosung makes the engines for Suzuki's SV650, davidka, but I reserve the right to be wrong. I’d be interested in seeing anything that supports this… It would make the bike a better value in a lot of ways.
If that is accurate, it will be the lightest production sport bike I’ve seen (in the US) since… I don’t know, the RS250?I don’t think Hyosung makes the engines for Suzuki's SV650, davidka, but I reserve the right to be wrong. I’d be interested in seeing anything that supports this… It would make the bike a better value in a lot of ways.
07-15-2010 | 03:17 PM
#58
Senior Member
Superstock
Superstock
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 321
From Fischer's site for starters:
"Engineering in Japan and built in their state-of-the art engine and transmission factory in Changwon City, South Korea, Hyosung also operates a large assembly plant for Suzuki motorcycles"
They made entire Suzukis dating back to 1978 for Asian markets. I don't believe this engine is the same engine as the SV650's but it should be of equal quality.
"Engineering in Japan and built in their state-of-the art engine and transmission factory in Changwon City, South Korea, Hyosung also operates a large assembly plant for Suzuki motorcycles"
They made entire Suzukis dating back to 1978 for Asian markets. I don't believe this engine is the same engine as the SV650's but it should be of equal quality.
07-15-2010 | 03:43 PM
#59
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 338
From: Colorado
Well tweety bird I was very careful in saying "similar power" I never said "similar performance". Two bikes with Similar Power but different purposes. I will agree the cbr600 is a better performer. that is its purpose. But just to argue a little more, the cbr does have similar acceleration numbers. Most mags that i've read are showing about 10.8 in the quarter and about 11.0 for the hawk. Ive seen higher and lower for both bikes. In the corners you the cbr is Amazing and i will never argue that the hawk competes in that arena. The fischer is a dedicated RR with a slight power deficiency. The Sv is a great All around bike. Two different purposes.
