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Old 07-11-2009 | 09:20 PM
  #61  
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I think that someone that put a lot of dédication in something like this can can get it done, it just take a lot of reading and lots of problems need to be expected and fixed, it's far from bolt on parts, but you have bend things into shape and not beeing dicouraged by things that don't work and start over as soon as something can't be fixed.

The bike runs better and better every hour I spend on it, I'm doing the final assembly, nothing have changed really but a ton of details have been taken care of.
I'm waiting for 2 breathers for the carankcase vents, a 4 1/2 inch K/N air filter, oh and some time !!
I think that in a couple weeks I should have a working bike, but no boost yet, got to tune the low pressure first, then start boosting and tuning the high pressure bins.
I could destroy the engine in a matter of seconds if I want to skip steps.
I'll post pics when it's back together.
Cheers.
Old 07-12-2009 | 05:22 AM
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Unless I missed it in your posts, you have not stated what sensors you have used for camshaft and crank angle. I am curious to know what you used.

I am converting my bike to EFI and I was going to use a cam sensor off a Varadero, and for the crank I was hoping to use the Pulse Generator.

What have you used?
Old 07-12-2009 | 05:29 AM
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like many here , am looking forward to this bike , intrested to see how it goes !!!! keep up the good work !
Old 07-18-2009 | 06:33 AM
  #64  
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Thanks, I missed the last posts of this thread, the bike is near completion...lol !!
Of course it will never be completed, but I will be able to test drive it, I need a serial to USB adapter to use my laptop to datalog to at least tune the air/fuel during acceleration, cruise décel. etc...

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The answer to Shane post :
Hi Shane, sorry i missed your post, I had a 24hours and onother 20 hours work days this week from overnight cutover that went wrong (fiber optics) I missed many things the lastweek lol

You already learned me something, I was not aware that we could get a cam sensor that would fit our engine, it could help a lot, but it's not necessary.

My engine runs off the 12-3 tooth wheel from the stock ignition only in a wasted spark fashion.
The two ignition channels fire every 360 degs, one on the fire stroke, the other wasted on the exhaust stroke. This leave very little time to charge the coils, but work fine since it's the stock config.

If you use the cam sensor route, witch I recommend, you may try to source a 12-0 crank wheel from a RC-51 or onother honda, the 3 teeth hole in the tach pulses is annoying while cranking, the timing is very unstable since that in a quater turn the engine speed can vary a lot and the predicted spark can come as far as 45 deg off, the engine tend to kick backward.
To correct this I made a 500 RPM bin on the ignition map set to -10 deg (10 deg retarded).
With the 12 teeth wheel the tach synch comes from the cam, when the ECU get tach, can count X teeths to find TDC then will fire according to the timing offset and timing table. This gives 720 deg to charge the coils, and enable some sequential injection.
I have to batch fire the injectors since mine are huge.

The ignition system from the VTR have to boxes, the ICU, the black one with the most wires and the aluminium one, the converter, you need to keep the converter (6 wires) to get a spark you need to hold 12 V at least 2 ms and cut it off at spark time 1 ms on the two blue wires, blue/black and yel/blue(from memory), this will trigger a bright blue spark.
So dwell 2ms and spark dur 1 ms

I hope I covered it all
Are you using Microsquirt as an ECU, if so I can help further.

Cheers Giovanni
Old 07-18-2009 | 06:18 PM
  #65  
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Every time I see this thread I say "Wow."

Now where's that book on dealing with envy.....
Old 07-19-2009 | 06:04 AM
  #66  
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Gboezio, all I can say is this is really exceptional work you have done here.
Old 07-19-2009 | 02:38 PM
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Looks great! Hope the crank can take the extra power.

(edit, removed question found it on last pic of first page )

Last edited by lazn; 07-19-2009 at 02:42 PM.
Old 07-20-2009 | 07:02 AM
  #68  
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Well, I finally rode the bike yesterday
And it pulled like...a sick Hundai !!
Of course it's out of tune, way too lean, except idle the only thing I could tune, with a load things are different.
The second ride, the one I filmed, pulled and hesitated like a new Hundai.
I even hit 5 lbs of boost, it happened so fast and it bogged down, due to extreme lean conditions.
Plugs were white, but no sign of detonation so far.
I still need to figure out a neat placement for the gauges, probably right there, but without the ziptie lol
I will need the left side fairing since this one is way too banged up to fix, need to fix my peg, extend the tail light wires, redo the whole throttle linkage, since it tends to stick, I need to find a steel cam and get two custom cables.
I established communication with the ECU trough a USB/serial converter, installing the pilot and finding the correct port was a major PITA, but after trying all the settings, I can finally une my laptop to datalog my rides, so I can tune later on.
I have bought a deaf amplifier, that I will hack and use to monitor detonation.

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Last edited by gboezio; 07-20-2009 at 07:06 AM.
Old 07-21-2009 | 03:46 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by gboezio
Thanks for the comments

Motec is probably the best ECU I can think of, if I ever win a million and build a racing Porche or something like this I could consider it, but with a price tag of 5000 $ for the unit and the rights to use it (It's locked), the ECU will be worth more money than the bike itself, thias king of engineering come at a fair price.
Microsquirt is 400$ and all softwares are free, but it's DIY oriented, it need way more time to set up properly.

Here's the datalog I ran, the dwell is falling at 2500 rpm, this the next thing I will investigate there may not be enough time to fully charge the coils
I may have to change the coils for LS1 units if I don't find a way, I have a hard time understanding how they were fired by the ICU in the first place
megasquirt is a very good ecu in itself
we use them here (my builder)
and i am going to be running a full standalone MS on my prostreet busa
so for the price they are hard to beat
Old 07-25-2009 | 11:42 AM
  #70  
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Definitely the best bang for the bucks

But, it wont work with a 12-3 wheel in wasted spark even less, so I'm taking the step back, I ordered a 12 tooths wheel from a 2002 CBR 954 and will grind a single tooth 30 deg ATDC to tach will be 60 ATDC. I added a cam synch VR sensor from a 95 BMW engine to give synch to the ECU to get rid of the wasted spark config

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The straight 2.5 inch pipe was stupid loud, beeing somewhat careful with my neighborhood relations, I decided to hack both cans and build a single can using both tips one hacked to fit the larger pipe, I reused the inlet chamber, drilled for flow and left the other two chambers out. Definitely not as loud, way lighter, free flowing and having the stock Honda stamp on it.
I was wondering how the exhaust gases could go trough this stupid maze without getting lost
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Left overs

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Old 07-25-2009 | 01:52 PM
  #71  
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wow, looks very cool. Hopefully you find a good tune for it and be able to ride it soon!
Old 07-27-2009 | 01:03 AM
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What you have done with the cam sensor, is what I was going to do. If I can't get that to work then it will have to go in the proper factory spot in the cylinder head.

If your CBR crank rotor does not fit easily, then a Varadero (XL1000V) rotor should fit straight on. It has 12 teeth and the Varadero uses the same crank as the VTR.
Old 07-28-2009 | 10:44 PM
  #73  
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Did you put some sort of rotor on the cam gear, or are you using the actual cam lobe to trigger the sensor. Given the size of the lobe will that be very accurate?

The Varadero has a cam rotor, similar to the crank pulse rotor, to trigger the sensor.
Old 07-29-2009 | 07:11 AM
  #74  
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I'm going to go get my Varadero crank rotor today , last part missing !!
Being the cheap *** that I am, having a VR sensor in my garage, I bought two fine threads bolts M10 x 1,00 x 30, cut it off at the cam gear thickness + nut, grinded the nut to fit between the cam casting ant the cam gear lip (it holds it for me while I tighten it), welded the rest of the bolt stem on the bolt head. There is three 10mm holes each side of the two mounting bolts. I mounted another dummy bolt to balance the cam gear at speed (minus the leftover stem). I punched the stem on the nut side to lock the bolt in place.
But damn I forgot to take a picture of this.
So basically I want synch for the front cyl, but the front cover is a pita to get to and the rear cam gear align the rear intake cam center hole straight up at TDC, I figured that I could tweak the angle and switch holes to move the cam signal where I want it (30-50 deg ATDC), the reason for the angle of the sensor.
Using a lobe may work, but a VR sensor's output voltage is proportional to the rise of the magnetic field, using a lobe will make a low and wide voltage pulse, while a square piece of steel flying by at good speed (away from the center of rotation go faster) will generate a high voltage spike that the computer will catch even during cranking.

In my setup the cam signal accuracy is not that important, the crank angle position is given by the missing tooth 60 ATDC, the cam gear is telling the computer what stroke cyl#1 is at, so it can determine if (the next cycle) it will fire the coil and injector or not. (yes it enable sequential injection and non wasted spark config, one spark every 720 deg/cyl)

Now are both cams different ?? I'm using single table efi and it will be just a matter of switching to dual tables to map both cyl differently (fuel only), but that start to get complicated, I would need to move my O2 sensor around the pipe...
Maybe I can just make the rear slightly richer, but I'm not sure how I changed the breathing characteristics of the engine with a 2 liters plenum. I think that I will just read plugs and if the rear one complains (get white) I'll switch to dual map and enrich until it'zs happy.

Microsquirt can just do it all pretty well, but I need to prove it this afternoon.
Oh and they released an even more DIY version, 200 $, board only with screw terminals, you build your efi box yourself, relays, wiring, but you get the same ECU capability, take more time and reading, but the price can't be beat, may be even cheaper to EFI a lawnmower than to replace the carb lol.

Last edited by gboezio; 07-29-2009 at 07:24 AM.
Old 07-31-2009 | 01:39 AM
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Both the RC51 & Varadero cam sensor is on the rear cylinder, so what you are doing is the same as the factory. I think for the extra cost I will be buying the Varadero cam pulse rotor. Easier than making my own like you have.

Personally, I think you will have less need for a separte fuel map for the rear cylinder than what I will. Forced induction (from what I know) does tend to overcome some of the characteristics of a normally aspirated engine. The Vtwin engine means you will have unequal intake and exhaust lengths, as well as temperature. So I will need separet maps for sure.

But your turbo will negate the effects of the different intake and exhaust lenghts between cylinders, at least to some extent. So you may not have much need to adjust the rear cylinder too much, perhaps only for temperature variation.

I have not looked at the Microsquirt for some time, so perhaps it is time to look at it again. From memory it will not do what I want, but I will check. Once again, I think it is less important for you than it will be for an normally aspirated engine. In my case I want en ECU that can run separate fuel and ignition maps for each cylinder, and allow unlimited rpm points at any interval. I think the ECU is very very important for me, and without the best ECU I can get it is not worth the effort. So many new fuel injected bikes are critisized by testers for their fuel mapping, so getting it set at its optimum level is a priority for me.
Old 07-31-2009 | 07:00 AM
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I'm still stuck with a crank sensor problem that I'm not equipped to diagnose myself, I'm in need of an oscilloscope to find out what happens in the VR sensor circuit, the timing will retard as the RPM increase, while the ECU keep it constant, probably a noise issue, seeing the waveform would help, I will try to insulate the wires and maybe try a few resistors, the timing pulls back so mutch that it acts like a rev limiter to 4500 RPM.
I'll post what I find.

Microsquirt will not do dual ignition tables, maybe the sequencer will, but it's still in beta testing for now, it have 5 12x12 maps, 2 VE, 2 target AFR and one spark, can be used in Alpha-N, Speed density or a mix of both, it also support MAF sensors.
Old 07-31-2009 | 10:09 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by gboezio
I'm still stuck with a crank sensor problem that I'm not equipped to diagnose myself, I'm in need of an oscilloscope to find out what happens in the VR sensor circuit, the timing will retard as the RPM increase, while the ECU keep it constant, probably a noise issue, seeing the waveform would help, I will try to insulate the wires and maybe try a few resistors, the timing pulls back so mutch that it acts like a rev limiter to 4500 RPM.
I'll post what I find.

Microsquirt will not do dual ignition tables, maybe the sequencer will, but it's still in beta testing for now, it have 5 12x12 maps, 2 VE, 2 target AFR and one spark, can be used in Alpha-N, Speed density or a mix of both, it also support MAF sensors.
My roommate was able to pickup a used oscilloscope at a local swap meet for cheap years ago.. A new one is crazy expensive, but he got his for like $15 and it works great. (it's big and bulky, but nice to have)

If you need one, I recommend searching similar places, that or ebay.
Old 07-31-2009 | 12:08 PM
  #78  
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Nice to see your bike is back together. I'm a big fan of this thread.
Old 08-02-2009 | 07:56 AM
  #79  
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I did not want to buy a 350 oscilloscope (checked classified too) and kept fooling around, I have found a neat tool, it's a code that erase all the EFI functions from the ECU and turns the Motorola processor into a teeth counter, this will show you exactly what the ECU see while cranking (won't run of course) and plot it on a graph.
The cam sensor was quitting and died totally yesterday morning, I have no cam pulses at all, I jumped the signal from the crank sensor and it picks it up, so it's between the cam sensor connection and the sensor.
Still not the ECU fault, I was starting to doubt of the uS ECU, but whatever the unit, if you feed it with crap, it will not work right.

So I have the crank sensor of my BMW engine, stripped the solidly frozen allen bolt and there is no way to get there with a drill or anything.
I will get another from a junkyard, my right wrist is itching badly...
Old 08-09-2009 | 08:14 PM
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It runs !!!
More than a Hundai on steroids, more like a VTR on steroids !!
I got my cam sensor, I got a Hall sensor the VR was too much of a PITA
I bought a 1GT101 from Digikey for 28 $.
It haven't skipped a single pulse since then.
Here's a shot of the pulses that the CPU see, crank blue, cam synch yellow
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The stock 12-3 aligned at front TDC, the sensor is right on the last tooth before the gap
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The 12 wheel with a tooth cut off, if someone do this, use the tank bolt to hold the primary drive, the cover bolts won't come out after the install because of the wider lip.

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I spent the whole day tuning the bike, I have the tables a bit more than roughly done, the bike will hesitate here and there, but is easy to drive around town.
At the end of the day I was able to wack the throttle wide open all the way trough the revs, the turbo spools early to 4 psi, then will creep slowly to 7-8 psi at ther redline, it's not something I designed, but it's perfect, it won't overfill the cylinders at torque peak (5 psi), then will steadily increase to 7.5 psi, advance seem to be right on, but I may get some dyno time to fine tune and to get numbers

Here's the datalog of a WOT pull
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How it feels ??
My butt dyno says it's way more powerful than before. specially the top end, the stock setup was more of a midrange affair and will pull hard to about 7500 RPM, Now it fills the top end with a linear pull all the way to 9000 RPM (I let it go before I still have no tach)
Not scary at all, I just feel like I sit on a bigger bike.
I will work out the glitches and go for a few quater miles pulls, or maybe some trackday.

I made a Video that sucks, but since it's all I have I'll post it anyway at 40 sec you can see the pull on the datalog above.
I'll make some better vids where we can actually see the acceelration, but it won't be more impressive than a CBR 1000 running wide open
Oh yeah I still need to arrange those gauges...I think that it's the purpose of winter...is it ??

Last edited by gboezio; 08-09-2009 at 08:21 PM.
Old 08-10-2009 | 06:10 PM
  #81  
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nice!
props man. I can't tell you how much ******* cooler this is than the turbo busas I see at the local bike show. I ask em anything, all they can say is "i don't the shop charged like $3k for the whole thing" haha good work mate
Old 08-18-2009 | 02:38 PM
  #82  
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Fabulous work! I don't understand a lot of what you're doing but I know it's wonderful.
Old 11-21-2009 | 09:31 AM
  #83  
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Notification of Award

Your extraordinary demonstration of skills and creativity have qualified you to be fully funded by the Unofficial Superhawk Forum who will purchase a lab in Silicon Valley complete with equipment, machines, technology, and parts, in addition to a volunteer crew of VTR owners/forum members who will donate their Superhawks for experimentation in the name of progress and invention, and who will drool all over you and your projects until you blast your way out of the lab on your SUPER STORM at which point they will unceremoniously wilt and die from all the over-stimulation.

Seriously, you are one crazy motherf@*<>r! When you get a brainfart, look out, cause it's gonna be serious, huh!
Old 11-21-2009 | 11:21 AM
  #84  
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You cracked me up, I have to admit that this is a serious brain fart, it's almost complete, but maybe really far, I'm into engine building brainstorm, it never stops.

A little update :

If I remove the engine from the chassis, I may trigger a chain of events that will cost me a ton of money and make serious power.
I'm so busy at the moment that the only thing left to do is to install a valve, that I have to increase the boost to the final level and tune some more, but I spend the whole week outside of town and it's getting chilly out there, so the bike is now off for the cold season.

I have dynoed the thing at 4 psi with close to stock results 112 hp at the wheel, but the bike gained a whole lot in power, witch indicate that something was wrong with the engine in the first place, but I have no baseline dyno run to put numbers on this, the bike never lifted the front before even brand new. So at the very least I will prove that everything is in proper working order then raise the boost until I get slight detonation and back it off, probably between 8 and 10 psi, it should make around 150 rwhp like I want it.

Leakdown tests are top notch, I suspect the cam timing to be off and it seem to be a Honda weakness, so I will fit a degree wheel and check for proper cam alignment, but accessing the front cyl will be easier if I take off the engine.

If I do so, I will redo the bike wiring in a more clever way, and while there, I may throw in there, rods, pistons, heck why not massage the heads a bit while in there, it never stops, I haven't even started chassis mods yet.

I will discuss shortly the weakness of our head design that prevent our bike to make top end power on another thread.
Old 11-21-2009 | 11:48 AM
  #85  
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Did I see pictures on your photobucket of you on the bike at the track with the turbo installed? Do tell, how is it vs stock at the track?
Old 11-22-2009 | 06:23 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Galaxieman
Did I see pictures on your photobucket of you on the bike at the track with the turbo installed? Do tell, how is it vs stock at the track?
Yes they were the pics of this thread
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ad.php?t=20099
I was still running low pressure so the power was up a bit and a hell of a lot of torque down low, I had to watch the front wheel more than usual, this was a very short track so I was off boost a lot of time, but when in full tune next season, I plan on trying it to ICAR at Mirabel and even go to the Friday night drags, it would allow me to open it up way more.
The greatest improvement for this short track was ground clearance, I could drag the pegs without fear of lifting the bike.
I need forks and frame stiffness badly.

Last edited by gboezio; 11-22-2009 at 07:16 AM.
Old 11-22-2009 | 07:42 AM
  #87  
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Stock is 102-104 at the wheel... 112-114 at the crank... So you are already above stock numbers...

And it's really nice... Just one thing though...

You are doing things backasswards... Frame, brakes and suspension first... THEN engine... I learned that from experience... Altough the older nut-jobs used to tell me before I learned it myself... I didn't listen much though...
Old 11-22-2009 | 11:17 PM
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A turbo should give a lot more than 10hp.
The ZRX turbo guys are pushing 180+ hp at the wheel, some over 200hp.
Old 11-23-2009 | 03:10 AM
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Yes, I just need to check everything before I turn up the boost, or it will go kaboom, remember the dyno run was not to measure power but to tune low boost ign and fuel, this spring I will tune high boost, should be more fun
Old 11-23-2009 | 09:21 AM
  #90  
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,631
From: Montreal
mikstr is on a distinguished road
F***ing amazing!!!!!!!!



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