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RC51 swingarm Mod.

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Old 02-16-2010 | 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by hondavtr1000sp2
Thanks for the info,there is a bit more to it than i thought . I was hoping for " Plug & play".
More like plug away, and play with, set-ups, measurements, calculations etc., but its all part of the deal. Umm.. except for Tweety, all his mods were the easy plug and play variety Right??
Old 02-16-2010 | 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by stebbdt
More like plug away, and play with, set-ups, measurements, calculations etc., but its all part of the deal. Umm.. except for Tweety, all his mods were the easy plug and play variety Right??
Hah... You wanna figure out why I at one point was the proud owner of two VTR swing arms, one CBR900RR swing arm, one CBR929RR swing arm, one CBR954RR swing arm, one SP1 swing arm and finally an SP2 swing arm... All with assorted wheelaxles and caliper mounts to go with them...

But no, it wasn't really hard... Mostly Plug & Play... The only problem is that factory manuals doesn't include dimensions on stuff or images of parts that you aren't sposed to fiddle with... But if you discount the fact that the Honda engineers got a few bolt holes in the wrong place and a few dimensions just a tad off... Well, other than that they have a pretty decent standardisation... Most parts fit together nicely...
Old 02-16-2010 | 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Tweety
Actually I wouldn't consider this a thread jack in any way... The shock is part of the equation to make this work...

The SP1/SP2 and CBR600RR/1000RR shock is entirely the wrong spring stiffness and valving for the leverage, so unless you plan to rebuild it completely it's out, plus they have an external reservoar that won't fit and are all the wrong lenght....

The best bet is either an Öhlins/Fox/WP or similar aftermarket shock that is adjustable in lenght...
Hey Tweety when I look up shocks, the searches in online stores ask for year/make/model of the bike. How should I search for an aftermarket rear shock, assuming I'm using an SP2 swingarm?
Old 02-16-2010 | 12:22 PM
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Just pick one for whatever year VTR you like... as long as you can adjust the lenght of it, that's all that matters... I did make the geometry the way it is to be close to stock, so a shock setup for the stock VTR (and your weight) should be good...
Old 02-16-2010 | 12:25 PM
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Aftermarket dogbone and shock link

Would a Soupy's Hourseshoe lowering link work as a replacement dogbone, and would a Kyle's Racing RC51 shock link work as well?
http://www.soupysperformance.com/cat...00/4958867.htm
http://www.scottsms.com/store/index....roducts_id=933
Attached Thumbnails RC51 swingarm Mod.-trips2_032_site_1.jpg  
Attached Images
File Type: bmp
Kyle Racing RC51 shock link.bmp (59.8 KB, 151 views)
Old 02-16-2010 | 02:15 PM
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Um... In one word... No...

I think we have a small misunderstanding here... The only things you need or have use for from an RC51 is the swing arm, brake caliper and mount... And possibly the rear wheel if you choose that vs a CBR wheel...

The VTR and RC51 is monumentally different in how the linkages are setup... The VTR has a classic dog-bone ie beefy alu chunk with one bolt at each end (although bolted to the engine, not a subframe... Somewhat unusual) and a lower link of two rather large (in comparison) triangles welded together at one point, bolted to the bottom of the swingarm...

The RC51 has an dog bone that is a bit unusual, in OEM form those two legs are fixed length, the Kyle/soupy version is adjustable, and the triangular link is basically a chunk sitting inside outer mount ears... That triangle is also in comparison to the VTR smaller and has a smaller ratio... combined with the dog bone being longer than the VTR's and a much, much lighter spring rate in the shock, you get a suspension that behaves a lot differently...

So that dog bone will not bolt to the engine end of the VTR unless you completely rebuild that... Also the VTR dog bone is asymmetrical, not the same width at both bolts, and the RC is symmetrical... And even if you do get all that to line up, you still need to come up with a custom link as the RC51 shock comes with a clevis bottom end, not an ear as the VTR's and most other shocks...

That doesn't mean however the idea behind that dog bone isn't useful... There are two ways of getting the swing arm to work with the VTR suspension... Or rather three... One is having the mount on the swing arm at the same relative position as on the OEM swing... Since that is impossible unless you cut the arm to pieces and weld it up again, that's a no go...

The other two is to change the length of either the dog bone or the shock and figuring out a working geometry... Or both, but then you end up with a mess as far as mathematics go... To many variables...

Since I was going to change the shock anyway, I choose to make that adjustable and keep the stock dogbone... Then I worked out the geometrics to be reasonably close to stock travel and loading on the shock (since then I could have Jamie valve it as it was going into a stock VTR... Again, less variables...)

Then since the swing arm has two outer ears as it is, you can either weld on it like I did on my bike and have an easier time making custom triangle plates for the link... Or make a triangle link that is plates at two points and a chunk in one... I considered that to be more work... And I did it the second time based on the fact that I had then already worked out and tested the geometry... And that meant I knew it would work, and I wouldn't have to make several tests...

I'm not saying my way of doing this is the only way... I'm actually quite certain there are several others... And quite possibly there is a better way than mine... But I'm saying there is NO way I know of to bolt existing pieces together... Believe my I tried very hard to find one... The only way to match up the pieces is to make at least one of them from scratch to make up for the fact that you cant bolt two outer ears together, you need one to be an inner piece...

And just about any way you do that starts with breaking out a calculator and a calculus text book and working through a couple of pages of equations... I have already done that... You are all welcome to use the result, but I'm not going to give anyone here ALL the details... That's not because I'm "holding out"... That's more my equivalent to a childproof box for the sharp knifes in the kitchen... If you can figure out the details for your self you can try it out... If you can't you probably shouldn't mess with the stuff... Because it can most definitely kill you...

Sorry if this sounds harsh or condescending in any way... It's not intended that way in the least... It's just that I don't want to be responsible for anyone else getting hurt...
Old 02-16-2010 | 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Tweety
OH BTW I'm not gonna try to be an expert in any way... But since I did my swap, as said I did a swap on another VTR for a friend... That was an SP1 arm... Like stebbdt is doing... So I'm guessing I'm the only one having done both... (Make that dumb enought to try...)

Easy'ish way to make a linkage work...

I made a large chunk of alu the width needed to bolt into the stock tabs on the RC swing, drilled the hole and pressed in the bearings from the stock RC dogbone, then ground out the thickness of the two side plates and bolted them to the alu block... The plates have the same dimensions as mine, just cut off after the bolts holding them to the block...

The F4i shock from Jamie works fine for me... But you do need it too be height adjustable... Either shell out for the adjustable version Jamie have (but isn't selling yet?) or DIY like me...
Tweety i understand what you are saying, but i am a little lazy & prefer plug & play ! If i get around to trying this swingarm swap i will be using the SP2 swinger stock (no cut & weld for me) & trying the alu block chunck & 2 plates bolted to the alu chunk. Do you know if Jamie is selling the height adjustable F4i shock yet & how much ? If so that would get me a little closer to plug & play.
Old 02-17-2010 | 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by hondavtr1000sp2
Tweety i understand what you are saying, but i am a little lazy & prefer plug & play ! If i get around to trying this swingarm swap i will be using the SP2 swinger stock (no cut & weld for me) & trying the alu block chunck & 2 plates bolted to the alu chunk. Do you know if Jamie is selling the height adjustable F4i shock yet & how much ? If so that would get me a little closer to plug & play.
PM him to find out... All the info I have comes from this thread... https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ight=oem+shock

You could always do what I did... http://images.tweety.se/#53.0

This my adjustable shock mount... A threaded rod goes into the hole in the top and then through the top of the frame... Another nut, under the frame and one on top, locking it all in place and you can adjust it... Just lift the saddle, loosen the top nut and the thread the one under the frame until you get the desired height and lock it again... If the range of adjustment isn't right, swap the rod... Once you have decent setup, cut the rod to have a couple of mm adjustment and a little margin... (I have about 7-8 mm free end, so I can go up a few mm and down a few...) But as short as possible...

That one is made from a piece of rectangular tube I had lying around, drill the holes and check the fit, then stick the nut in there and weld it, then add the middle plate, lying "on top" of the nut and weld it... Clean it up and paint it... Done... Thinking it up was the hard part... Since it's beefier than the stock part it's more than up to the job... The other two nuts used are nylocs and the thread on the bottom one is locked by loctite (welding a nyloc nut is a bad idea, you get a sticky mess...) and the rod is resting on the middle plate, so it's not going anywhere... I drilled the hole in the frame larger to use M12 (or m14?) rod...

Last edited by Tweety; 02-17-2010 at 12:13 PM.
Old 02-17-2010 | 06:39 PM
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Thanks for the info & the link Tweety . As i said earlier i am hoping to do this swap one day ! I am in the middle of moving interstate , selling & buying a new home, so all my stuff including my firestorm is in storage . But one day, i hope sooner than later i will do this swap & post up a "My bike build". Still collecting parts for my build & collecting valuable infomation. I love this Superhawk Forum, there is always some one willing to help out, much appreciated by myself & im sure buy alot of others !
Old 02-17-2010 | 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by salmanilla2000
Would a Soupy's Hourseshoe lowering link work as a replacement dogbone, and would a Kyle's Racing RC51 shock link work as well?
http://www.soupysperformance.com/cat...00/4958867.htm
http://www.scottsms.com/store/index....roducts_id=933
BTW salmanilla... My little rant above was in no way directed at you even if I realize it might look that way when reading it now... Keep asking questions... I'll answear them to the best of my knowledge... That was just an explanation as to why I might not give all the details at some points... If I end up in a ditch from my own fiddeling, then that's my responsability... I will however not be part to putting someone else there...
Old 02-17-2010 | 07:24 PM
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Tri-plate

Well, seeings as you brought it up, (some things you'll need to figure for yourself) I was working off of the drawing you posted up and couldn't quite get the proper Center to center hole dimensions using the provided angles and C to C dimensions. I had to use 80 degrees at the engine link then 50 degrees on each on the shock and swingarm, then my C to C dimensions Matched exactly. See pic. Any thoughts? Thanks.
Attached Thumbnails RC51 swingarm Mod.-tri_plate_1a.jpg  

Last edited by stebbdt; 02-17-2010 at 07:27 PM.
Old 02-17-2010 | 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Tweety
BTW salmanilla... My little rant above was in no way directed at you even if I realize it might look that way when reading it now... Keep asking questions... I'll answear them to the best of my knowledge... That was just an explanation as to why I might not give all the details at some points... If I end up in a ditch from my own fiddeling, then that's my responsability... I will however not be part to putting someone else there...
Not a problem Tweety. I did lose some sleep over it, but thank goodness for Nyquil. I might try out Soupy's dogbone, but I'm not sure about the Kyle's Racing shock link. That sucka is $350+.
Old 02-17-2010 | 08:02 PM
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I saw that soupys link on the bay and thought, hmmm..$140.00, you could make that for about 1/2 the price with redily available materials online, I found the hiem joints for like 22.00 each and the threaded section for 18.00, even those insert pieces are all available. I'll try to post some links tommorrow.
Old 02-18-2010 | 08:40 AM
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http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...ction=category

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tp...ction=category

Links to Hiems and rod/threaded bodies
Old 02-18-2010 | 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by stebbdt
Well, seeings as you brought it up, (some things you'll need to figure for yourself) I was working off of the drawing you posted up and couldn't quite get the proper Center to center hole dimensions using the provided angles and C to C dimensions. I had to use 80 degrees at the engine link then 50 degrees on each on the shock and swingarm, then my C to C dimensions Matched exactly. See pic. Any thoughts? Thanks.
I worked out 51 for the shock, 50 for the swing arm (same as on tweetys drawing) and 79 for the engine c to c dimentions

Last edited by Gaggenau; 02-18-2010 at 02:03 PM.
Old 02-18-2010 | 02:11 PM
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Actually checking my notes Gaggenau is spot on... Dunno why but I got it wrong on the drawing... It was made on rather greasy cardboard and on paper with square pattern (damn language barrier) So I redrew it and messed up that number...
Old 03-05-2010 | 12:13 PM
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Whats people's views on using the stock wheel and sprocket carrier? By replacing the bearings, in both, machine a new bearing spacer to go in the wheel and one the sits between the wheel and sprocket carrier? Should it be possible, i dont see any reason why not.

I havent managed to get the back end off yet and have a measure to finish the drawing for the linkage, and iv finaly found a SP2 arm that i shall be getting soon to replace the sp1.

Tweety, i recall that you have used jardine link pipes because the stock ones were too narrow for the sp2 arm, have you any idea how much wider the arm is at this point compared to the storm?
Old 03-05-2010 | 06:37 PM
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The difference in width isn't too much... Also it's acually more an issue of the height of it... The stock arm actually sits underneath the stock mufflers to some extent... And at full compression the SP2 arm would hit the mufflers... And before that it would be tight... But not hitting if I remember correctly...

It's just that the stock ones have the mids welded so you cant shift them without pointing the mufflers in strange directions... Any slip-on system should allow you enough wiggle room... You just need to be able to angle the pipe a bit and then do the same where it mates to the muffler to compensate...

Last edited by Tweety; 03-05-2010 at 06:47 PM.
Old 03-05-2010 | 06:42 PM
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Oh, on the rim issue... I wouldn't bother... The stock rim is made of lead... I think it was a 20-30% heavier than the CBR rim I'm using... And the cush drive is also a lead weight in comparasion... Get a 600RR rim on there as it's 5.5" as stock... Or an even lighter (despite being wider) 1000RR 6" rim and matching 190 tire...
Old 03-06-2010 | 04:15 AM
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I have a viper slip on's so, from what you have said it should be ok, with a little bit of wiggling.

Im not to fussed about the weight issue with the rims, it is something that i will do, eventualy, i just wanted to know if there was any limitating factor about the stock wheels that would not allow them to be used in the SP2/SP1 that cannot be changed at all
Old 03-06-2010 | 03:05 PM
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I really don't think it would be a problem finding bearings to convert it to a 25 mm axle... Just a hassle, and not worth the work IMHO... Stick any 25 mm axle CBR wheel on there instead...

This tire swap I'm actually going to try a 1000RR wheel and a 190/55 tire...
Old 03-10-2010 | 02:59 PM
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I have a realy bad feeling that the Sp1 caliper mount will not fit the SP2 arm, gona go pick up the mount at the weekend from the shop, where the sp1 arm is....

Can some one put me out of my missery
Old 03-10-2010 | 03:36 PM
  #83  
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Well... It might not be the answear you where looking for... But yeah... The angle is wrong on the mount... Won't fit at all... The good news is that the caliper fits...
Old 03-11-2010 | 03:21 AM
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thought as much, at least the caliper is the same, might jsut use the storm caliper as that will fit too, just the banjo and bleed nipple are opposite
Old 03-11-2010 | 03:44 AM
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Yeah... they fit... But bleeding it becomes a real PITA and the brakeline is almost to short... So use an SP caliper, much easier...
Old 04-07-2010 | 04:06 AM
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Right got my self the SP2 caliper, dam post office lost, so it was a week late, so thats all good now.

Here are some pics of the linkage that i have sent to the machine shop, so hopefully ill get a price in about a week to get it machined

It was designed and load tested in a program called solid works, and has a minimum FOS of 2.8 using 6061 aly, but im hoping to use 6082.




Last edited by Gaggenau; 04-07-2010 at 04:08 AM.
Old 04-07-2010 | 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Gaggenau
Right got my self the SP2 caliper, dam post office lost, so it was a week late, so thats all good now.

Here are some pics of the linkage that i have sent to the machine shop, so hopefully ill get a price in about a week to get it machined

It was designed and load tested in a program called solid works, and has a minimum FOS of 2.8 using 6061 aly, but im hoping to use 6082.
Hi G,
Are you saying that this piece of art could be machined and then make the SP2 swing arm "plug and play" as far as attaching it to the shock linkage? Would the 'ride angle' also be sorted by using the standard shock (or aftermarket shock for the VTR)?

If so, you are a genious....
Old 04-07-2010 | 11:12 AM
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Yep that is the idea, aslong as my measurements are all correct, other wise it will be an expensive paper weight ha ha

The hole dimentions are from Tweety, and used the same dims for his conversion, but you have to use a ride hight adjustable shock for it,(mine has an ohlins which is) i dont think the standard showa shock has that facility?
Old 04-07-2010 | 11:43 AM
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Probably just jinxed my self there, just checked my drawings again, and iv been using a 23mm hole for the needle bearing, the honda ones ill be putting in are 24mm OD, oops, haha doh, good job i havent told him to go a head with it.....pmsl
Old 04-07-2010 | 12:17 PM
  #90  
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Now that's a piece of art... Mine didn't look half as good... It did fit though...



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