929/954 Front End Swap - FunDGH
01-11-2008 | 03:52 PM
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929/954 Front End Swap - FunDGH
OK, so I started my front end swap, and thought I would do all of this documentation and fancy writeup. Sorry, not gonna happen. I just want to get it done and go ride again. I got track days coming up and what not.
But, I will share my facts and findings. I did also do some crude baseline measurements, that are worthless by themselves, but I should be able to see the increases or decreases in ergos, etc.
At this point I got all SuperHawk stuff removed. I left the fairing stay and gauge cluster in place, and removed the rads.
-I am using all 954 parts (to my knowledge)-forks, tripples, clip-ons, wheel, rotors, calipers.
-I have a 1000rr radial MC that I am going to try to make work.
-I rebuilt the forks with new bushings and seals from Racetech, and bought the seal driver and spring compressor that they sell, and these items helped alot.
-I had my Dunlop taken off the Hawk wheel and mounted to the 954 wheel, and had a 90 degree valve stem installed while I was at it.
-I weighed the wheels with rotors and bearings installed (no tire) on the UPS scale at work and found that the 954 wheel weighed in at 15.18 pounds while the SH wheel weighed 15.08. Needless to say, not much difference.
-I removed all of the old bearings from the steering stem, and the head of the frame using various punches, chissels, and hammers.
-I utilized the old bearing races to assist with installing the new races and bearings.
-I put the races for the frame in the freezer (along with the lower tripple w/ steering stem) for a couple of weeks prior to fitting the bearings and races. I would say it helped with the races, but I don't think it did much for the stem. Probably could have used some heat on the bearing for the lower since it was kind of a bitch, but I got it.
-I made not of the interference with the fairing stay and used the dremel to grind away the back sides of the steering stops.
- I have the forks mounted up in the tripples and have the clip-ons in place. So far so good. I think I will have issues with the fairing stay (which was previously wrecked and bent back into place) and the radial master cylinder, but we'll see.
-I cut a few pieces of aluminum to relocate the rads, but still need to drill the holes and finish the edges.
I will post more as I complete various tasks.
But, I will share my facts and findings. I did also do some crude baseline measurements, that are worthless by themselves, but I should be able to see the increases or decreases in ergos, etc.
At this point I got all SuperHawk stuff removed. I left the fairing stay and gauge cluster in place, and removed the rads.
-I am using all 954 parts (to my knowledge)-forks, tripples, clip-ons, wheel, rotors, calipers.
-I have a 1000rr radial MC that I am going to try to make work.
-I rebuilt the forks with new bushings and seals from Racetech, and bought the seal driver and spring compressor that they sell, and these items helped alot.
-I had my Dunlop taken off the Hawk wheel and mounted to the 954 wheel, and had a 90 degree valve stem installed while I was at it.
-I weighed the wheels with rotors and bearings installed (no tire) on the UPS scale at work and found that the 954 wheel weighed in at 15.18 pounds while the SH wheel weighed 15.08. Needless to say, not much difference.
-I removed all of the old bearings from the steering stem, and the head of the frame using various punches, chissels, and hammers.
-I utilized the old bearing races to assist with installing the new races and bearings.
-I put the races for the frame in the freezer (along with the lower tripple w/ steering stem) for a couple of weeks prior to fitting the bearings and races. I would say it helped with the races, but I don't think it did much for the stem. Probably could have used some heat on the bearing for the lower since it was kind of a bitch, but I got it.
-I made not of the interference with the fairing stay and used the dremel to grind away the back sides of the steering stops.
- I have the forks mounted up in the tripples and have the clip-ons in place. So far so good. I think I will have issues with the fairing stay (which was previously wrecked and bent back into place) and the radial master cylinder, but we'll see.
-I cut a few pieces of aluminum to relocate the rads, but still need to drill the holes and finish the edges.
I will post more as I complete various tasks.
Last edited by fundgh; 01-11-2008 at 03:59 PM.
01-15-2008 | 11:23 AM
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-I mounted up the front wheel and bolted (temporarily) the calipers on.
-I mounted up the controls...
Houston, we have problems!
-The radial master cylinder will NOT work, it pretty much hits everything.
-I am starting to believe that the stock 954 clip-ons will NOT work.
-The stock MC for the SH hits the gauges, the clutch lever hits the gauges, the clutch fluid hose hits the gauges. Pretty much...EVERYTHING hits the gauges.
-I read everyones feedback, and thought that I could MAKE the 954 clip-ons work since they look pretty tall. If anyone is using them, please let me know what you did to make them work, but as far as I can tell, I will need to do some serious moding to get them to work.
Back to the drawing board!
-I mounted up the controls...
Houston, we have problems!
-The radial master cylinder will NOT work, it pretty much hits everything.
-I am starting to believe that the stock 954 clip-ons will NOT work.
-The stock MC for the SH hits the gauges, the clutch lever hits the gauges, the clutch fluid hose hits the gauges. Pretty much...EVERYTHING hits the gauges.
-I read everyones feedback, and thought that I could MAKE the 954 clip-ons work since they look pretty tall. If anyone is using them, please let me know what you did to make them work, but as far as I can tell, I will need to do some serious moding to get them to work.
Back to the drawing board!
01-15-2008 | 05:48 PM
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F*&#%^*#!!!!
So the CBR1000 radial master cylinder won't work with the 954 clip-ons, but I determined that SOMETHING will work because the stock MC fits without too much interference. SO I went to the local MC wrecking yard and picked up a salvaged RC51 Master Cylinder for $80 thinking that it would work. When I got home and bolted it on, I saw how big that f^%#er is and it won't work either. So I either a) risk another 50-90 bucks on a 600rr, or 954 MC b) spend $269 on Heli bars and install whichever fits best or c) use the superhawk mc and suffer the reduced effectiveness.
I must be an idiot. I have read EVERYBODY's threads about front end swap, and I still am trying to re-invent the wheel. Somebody put me out of my misery!
So the CBR1000 radial master cylinder won't work with the 954 clip-ons, but I determined that SOMETHING will work because the stock MC fits without too much interference. SO I went to the local MC wrecking yard and picked up a salvaged RC51 Master Cylinder for $80 thinking that it would work. When I got home and bolted it on, I saw how big that f^%#er is and it won't work either. So I either a) risk another 50-90 bucks on a 600rr, or 954 MC b) spend $269 on Heli bars and install whichever fits best or c) use the superhawk mc and suffer the reduced effectiveness.
I must be an idiot. I have read EVERYBODY's threads about front end swap, and I still am trying to re-invent the wheel. Somebody put me out of my misery!
01-15-2008 | 06:14 PM
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Why won't the CBR1000 mc work? Just that stoopid little tab for locating? I grind'em off...all of'em.
RC mc too big? Why? You def don't want the stocker...
I went with a 600RR because of the integral reservoir. I don't like that little plastic pot sittin' up there.....11/16ths vs 3/4 for the RC but I get PLENTY of braking from those 330mm discs...yikes!
RC mc too big? Why? You def don't want the stocker...
I went with a 600RR because of the integral reservoir. I don't like that little plastic pot sittin' up there.....11/16ths vs 3/4 for the RC but I get PLENTY of braking from those 330mm discs...yikes!
01-15-2008 | 07:21 PM
#5
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If you're gonna spend that much money on bars at least get something that gives you some adjustability like convertibars or gilles variobars or whatever they're called. Adjust in every direction. I did an rc51 front end swap and am using a brembo radial mc and I WILL make it work/fit 
The convertibars give me alot of options. So far so good but yeah it's LOTS of time tightening and loosening everything and I'm not done yet. I've mounted a sharkskinz race upper just to keep from messing my nice fairings up while I'm doing this...
The convertibars give me alot of options. So far so good but yeah it's LOTS of time tightening and loosening everything and I'm not done yet. I've mounted a sharkskinz race upper just to keep from messing my nice fairings up while I'm doing this...
Last edited by captainchaos; 01-15-2008 at 09:59 PM.
01-15-2008 | 10:42 PM
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I will try to thow in some pics tomorrow, but the RC51 mc and 1000 mc are HUGE. The 1000 being radial, sticks forward quite a ways. The 954 clipons are fairly low, so the RC51 mc (which is nearly as big as the 1000 despite not being radial) hits the gauges. At this point neither of them have their reservoirs on them and I don't have the fairing on, so the limitations are the fairing stay and the gauge cluster. It seems that wider bars that sit more toward the rider would allow a little more space.
01-16-2008 | 06:36 AM
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01-16-2008 | 08:51 AM
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Don't spend big bucks on handlebar solution (especially for the track). Go old skool and mount risers (lowest you can find) on the top bridge (triple) and superbike handlebars (under $20 for cheapies) in any bend you want.
Kai did it on his 954 setup. Here's a pic of my latest conversion (vfr):
I needed higher risers for the app since they are regular forks and I thus needed to clear the fork tubes above the triple; an issue you won't have to deal with.
Kai did it on his 954 setup. Here's a pic of my latest conversion (vfr):
I needed higher risers for the app since they are regular forks and I thus needed to clear the fork tubes above the triple; an issue you won't have to deal with.
01-16-2008 | 09:32 AM
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Using the stock MC (which has a smaller diameter) will result in added lever travel but it will also increase line pressure (meaning stronger brakes; btw, Honda did this very same thing in reducing the MC diameter from the 929 to the 954). Might be worth a try....
01-16-2008 | 11:48 AM
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May do that as a temporary solution.
I have considered the superbike bar solution, but unless it is a street fighter, I have a hard time accepting it as a realistic solution. This bike is a 50% track bike, 40% sport riding bike, and 10% 2-up cruising sport touring bike. I would not want to sacrifice performance for convenience (which is the reason I am doing the swap anyway).
The attached photos show the CBR1000, RC51 (SP1), and Superhawk master cylinders at the interference point at full left turn. I am starting to the that the RC51 may be acceptable. The lighting is bad so it is difficult to see the interference point, but you can definitely see the difference in turn angle.
I have considered the superbike bar solution, but unless it is a street fighter, I have a hard time accepting it as a realistic solution. This bike is a 50% track bike, 40% sport riding bike, and 10% 2-up cruising sport touring bike. I would not want to sacrifice performance for convenience (which is the reason I am doing the swap anyway).
The attached photos show the CBR1000, RC51 (SP1), and Superhawk master cylinders at the interference point at full left turn. I am starting to the that the RC51 may be acceptable. The lighting is bad so it is difficult to see the interference point, but you can definitely see the difference in turn angle.
01-16-2008 | 12:35 PM
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Judging by your pics, you need to come up AND back, correct? 50mm forks? Might see what Sport-Touring bikes that have USD forks use (duc ST4, ST2, etc).
Last edited by superbling; 01-16-2008 at 01:57 PM.
01-16-2008 | 12:40 PM
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That has to be the Sweetest VFR in existence!
Yeah, it would certainly help to be up and back and even out a little wider too! I am just trying to avoid the clip-on change at this point because it seems to be the highest dollar swap, and the hardest to repair in the event of a crash.
Yeah, it would certainly help to be up and back and even out a little wider too! I am just trying to avoid the clip-on change at this point because it seems to be the highest dollar swap, and the hardest to repair in the event of a crash.
01-16-2008 | 01:11 PM
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Before you bend yourself complete out of shape... Have you testmounted the fairings? Does the throttle cables and that stuff clear the top of the fairings?
The reason I'm asking is that I think Icebud bought the 954 HeliBars and still they where low enough to have interference problems...
The reason I'm asking is that I think Icebud bought the 954 HeliBars and still they where low enough to have interference problems...
01-16-2008 | 01:26 PM
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That's next.
Does anybody know the stand steering Lock to Lock measurement? What angle is OK, what angle is difficult to use? I am measuring 29 degrees to the left and 33 to the right. IF I made adjustable stops and limited it to 28 degrees in both directions, would I hate it? I have not been able to find any specs for bikes that list that angle measurement.
Does anybody know the stand steering Lock to Lock measurement? What angle is OK, what angle is difficult to use? I am measuring 29 degrees to the left and 33 to the right. IF I made adjustable stops and limited it to 28 degrees in both directions, would I hate it? I have not been able to find any specs for bikes that list that angle measurement.
01-16-2008 | 01:29 PM
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I mounted superbike type bars to mine. They are only slightly higher and closer to the seat than the stockers. Also, I cut them to match the width of the stock clipons. I like the position better than stock, but it's still a sporty riding position as opposed to a sit up riding position.
Last edited by killer5280; 01-16-2008 at 01:34 PM.
01-16-2008 | 01:32 PM
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I have absolutely no idea...:/
What part is hitting? it looks like the 1000RR M/C is hitting the gauge cluster, not the fairing stay... (I have such an M/C and was hoping to use it...)
Oh btw my gauge cluster will at the same time be swapped for a 1000RR cluster... so it will move more forward, but it seems it's hitting the mounting tab?
How much do you have left to full lock? ie small gap as in a couple of degrees or several?
What part is hitting? it looks like the 1000RR M/C is hitting the gauge cluster, not the fairing stay... (I have such an M/C and was hoping to use it...)
Oh btw my gauge cluster will at the same time be swapped for a 1000RR cluster... so it will move more forward, but it seems it's hitting the mounting tab?
How much do you have left to full lock? ie small gap as in a couple of degrees or several?
01-16-2008 | 01:38 PM
#20
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Problem is one of my 954 clipons is bent, so I'm going to need to either replace that one, and have all your problems... or getting a whole new setup... and IF...
Then I'm thinking IF I bite the bullet and buy something I will go for the Convertibars... then I have full freedom... Getting the Heli's and then ending up compromising anyway seems like to much money for to little change...
But I still havent decided... Helibars for the TL1000 or the CBR1000RR or the 600RR 07 (solid aluminium) are my other options... But i'm kinda undecided as of yet...
So basicly you have my rapt attention... I'm looking vary carefully at what you are doing...
Then I'm thinking IF I bite the bullet and buy something I will go for the Convertibars... then I have full freedom... Getting the Heli's and then ending up compromising anyway seems like to much money for to little change...
But I still havent decided... Helibars for the TL1000 or the CBR1000RR or the 600RR 07 (solid aluminium) are my other options... But i'm kinda undecided as of yet...
So basicly you have my rapt attention...
I'm looking vary carefully at what you are doing...
Last edited by Tweety; 01-16-2008 at 01:42 PM.
01-16-2008 | 01:45 PM
#21
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I mounted superbike type bars to mine. They are only slightly higher and closer to the seat than the stockers. Also, I cut them to match the width of the stock clipons. I like the position better than stock, but it's still a sporty riding position as opposed to a sit up riding position.
Argh... stop showing me those...
I'm beginning to like them dammit...I was totally against them to begin with... but you are tempting me...
01-16-2008 | 01:50 PM
#22
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I mounted superbike type bars to mine. They are only slightly higher and closer to the seat than the stockers. Also, I cut them to match the width of the stock clipons. I like the position better than stock, but it's still a sporty riding position as opposed to a sit up riding position.
That's the beauty of this mod, the combination of bar bend and riser height will give you any thing you want including lower than stock. You can also rotate the bars in the risers for fine tuning. Cost? As little as $50 and that's for new parts.
Last edited by superbling; 01-16-2008 at 01:54 PM.
01-16-2008 | 02:12 PM
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The toughest part was making the spacers. They were cheap but time consuming. I got the idea from kai ju.
If I had to do it again, I think I would mount the risers/mounts directly to the flat part of the 954 triple. It looks like there is enough room and it would greatly simplify this mod. The bar is a cheap Bikemaster superbike bend--15 bucks or so.
If I had to do it again, I think I would mount the risers/mounts directly to the flat part of the 954 triple. It looks like there is enough room and it would greatly simplify this mod. The bar is a cheap Bikemaster superbike bend--15 bucks or so.
01-16-2008 | 03:19 PM
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So the right side controls are clearly the limiting factor. I fenagled all the space I could get out of the throttle tube orientation and the RC51 master cylinder, and it looks like I can get away with 25 degrees of from center to full lock in either direction. I would like to know what the stock measurement is. It appears to be lined up almost perfectly with the tank mounting bolt holes on both sides. There is still a lot of space between the stops on the frame and lower tripple, but I would modify those.
The AFM rule book states that all bikes must have at least 20 degrees in either direction, I am guessing my 25 degrees while less than stock, isn't horrible.
My other option is to grind 1/8" off of the bottom of the upper tripple, and maybe some off of the upper forkmount surface of the clip-on and get another 1/4" max rise.
The AFM rule book states that all bikes must have at least 20 degrees in either direction, I am guessing my 25 degrees while less than stock, isn't horrible.
My other option is to grind 1/8" off of the bottom of the upper tripple, and maybe some off of the upper forkmount surface of the clip-on and get another 1/4" max rise.
01-16-2008 | 03:45 PM
#25
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Well... looking at your pics and the pics on HeliBars site you can clearly tell the difference it makes moving the bars out and back along the circle of the forkleg... It makes about an inch in "comfort position"... but it explains why most have been getting full lock stop to stop with HeliBars...
It should also help immensly when trying to clear the gauges...
Gahhh... I'm not getting closer to a deciscion here... Altough I'm getting more and more sure that spending money to replace my bent 954 clipon is a bad idea...
Actually I do belive It would be possible to use the radial M/C from the 1000RR on a HeliBar... gah... and tripple gahh...
It should also help immensly when trying to clear the gauges...
Gahhh... I'm not getting closer to a deciscion here...
Altough I'm getting more and more sure that spending money to replace my bent 954 clipon is a bad idea...Actually I do belive It would be possible to use the radial M/C from the 1000RR on a HeliBar... gah... and tripple gahh...
01-16-2008 | 04:22 PM
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At this point the Rads are off, and if I keep the limited steering capabilities the way they are, I don't think I will need to move the rads. But I really don't like the idea that I am limited to 22-25 degrees max. The clutch lever and throttle tubes simultaneously hit their respective parts when cranked to the right. The, so even if I gained some space for one side, the other would hit. Simply raising the bar height (by grinding on things) would not benefit. The back, out, and up of Helis or Convertis is what is necessary. Or the superbike bar conversion.
HMMMMM
HMMMMM
01-16-2008 | 05:03 PM
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At this point I see no other option but to buy Helibars (I am choosing not to do the superbike bar thing). I know that the TL helibars are the ones to get, but I have seen a couple different options. Is it the Helibar for the TL-S? Is it the older version or newer, there are two on the Heli website.
And after looking Heli's Website, why would I not want to just use the 954 Helis? Since they are 1.5 up, 1.5 back, and 2" wider; I don't see why they wouldn't work.
And after looking Heli's Website, why would I not want to just use the 954 Helis? Since they are 1.5 up, 1.5 back, and 2" wider; I don't see why they wouldn't work.
Last edited by fundgh; 01-16-2008 at 05:11 PM.
01-16-2008 | 06:39 PM
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At this point I see no other option but to buy Helibars (I am choosing not to do the superbike bar thing). I know that the TL helibars are the ones to get, but I have seen a couple different options. Is it the Helibar for the TL-S? Is it the older version or newer, there are two on the Heli website.
And after looking Heli's Website, why would I not want to just use the 954 Helis? Since they are 1.5 up, 1.5 back, and 2" wider; I don't see why they wouldn't work.
And after looking Heli's Website, why would I not want to just use the 954 Helis? Since they are 1.5 up, 1.5 back, and 2" wider; I don't see why they wouldn't work.
One question, with the RC51 MC the squeeze is much harder but not much better braking with the stock calipers. Larger bore less pressure? I may go back to the VTR MC until I can find some good RC51 calipers cheap.
Last edited by skokievtr; 01-16-2008 at 06:44 PM.
01-16-2008 | 06:52 PM
#30
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Stock and VTR Heli's are 41mm (43mm?)... fundgh's forklegs are 954's and are 50mm... So that's why...
fundgh: I'm looking at the HeliBars from the 1000RR or 600RR -07, partly since I'm using a full 1000RR front... So getting a brakeline in the package in the correct lenght might be good for me... The 600RR because they are solid aluminium and takes less space themselves...
Also both are less sloped than the TL Heli's...
Note that the TL Heli's are higher than the 954 according to most... The numbers listed are relative to that bikes stock... And when I e-mailed them to get actual figures on rise, they politely refused...
fundgh: I'm looking at the HeliBars from the 1000RR or 600RR -07, partly since I'm using a full 1000RR front... So getting a brakeline in the package in the correct lenght might be good for me... The 600RR because they are solid aluminium and takes less space themselves...
Also both are less sloped than the TL Heli's...
Note that the TL Heli's are higher than the 954 according to most... The numbers listed are relative to that bikes stock... And when I e-mailed them to get actual figures on rise, they politely refused...
Last edited by Tweety; 01-16-2008 at 06:56 PM.
