WARNING - old cam chain tensioners prone to fail
#1
WARNING - old cam chain tensioners prone to fail
There have been many cases where the spring breaks in the cam chain tensioners. Usually this takes place around 20 - 30k. Some people report that there is a noise that warns you of impending doom. Others say their engine just seized with no warning.
What happens is that the spring breaks then there is no tension on the cam chain and it jumps a tooth/teeth and you drop a valve.
I believe Honda has addressed the problem by updating the part and the new CCT's have a pink or orange painted dot on them (this needs to be verified though).
Another solution is getting a manual CCT from the aftermarket such as "APE".
In any case I strongly suggest you replace them if you have a bike in that milage range without the lastest iteration of CCT's from Honda.
This maybe the latest revision:
Part Number: 14520-MBB-013
Description: LIFTER, TENSIONER
Source: HONDA
Price: $53.57
What happens is that the spring breaks then there is no tension on the cam chain and it jumps a tooth/teeth and you drop a valve.
I believe Honda has addressed the problem by updating the part and the new CCT's have a pink or orange painted dot on them (this needs to be verified though).
Another solution is getting a manual CCT from the aftermarket such as "APE".
In any case I strongly suggest you replace them if you have a bike in that milage range without the lastest iteration of CCT's from Honda.
This maybe the latest revision:
Part Number: 14520-MBB-013
Description: LIFTER, TENSIONER
Source: HONDA
Price: $53.57
#2
Re: WARNING - old cam chain tensioners prone to fail
I am getting my front cyclinder head replaced as we speak from the cct failing, the mech said that on the race bikes they use a bolt that just screws in behind the tensioner, ( from the outside of the motor), it just stops the tension deissapearing if the spring lets go. Does anybody know about this?
#3
Re: WARNING - old cam chain tensioners prone to fail
I believe he is referring to the manual type. All it is is a bolt that goes through a bracket and is held in place by a lock nut. No spring to fail and constant pressure on the cam chain.
#4
Re: WARNING - old cam chain tensioners prone to fail
Thats the manual ct hey, nice pic. I think the moral of the story about the mx bolt was that you didnt have to pay much for a fix, not sure how much ape ask, but pretty sure it would be more that 20 buck. I will post more when I get more info from him.
#6
No, what Rufion is talking about is using a long(er) bolt in the hole at the end of the stock tensioner. That way it creates a stop which limits how much slack can be allowed if the tensioner spring fails. Not a bad idea in my opinion. However, for this to work to it's fullest you would need to regularly check to see that the bolt is very close to tensioning mechanism. If not a slightly longer bolt would be needed. Sounds like a little bit of a pain but might be cheap security.
Jamie Daugherty
http://members.iquest.net/~daugherj
Jamie Daugherty
http://members.iquest.net/~daugherj
#11
One thing I would like people to know if they don't plan to update them. The tensioner is basically a screw that is turned by a spring wound around it. As there is slack in the chain the spring turns and extends the tip. When the spring breaks it slowly turns backward loosening as it goes. You can hear the chain gain slack. If you kill the motor right when it starts to get slack you save the valves.
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
One thing I would like people to know if they don't plan to update them. The tensioner is basically a screw that is turned by a spring wound around it. As there is slack in the chain the spring turns and extends the tip. When the spring breaks it slowly turns backward loosening as it goes. You can hear the chain gain slack. If you kill the motor right when it starts to get slack you save the valves.
Not tring to be an *** at all.. but,, I've heard three bikes die, by way of a failed CCT, teo of um I was riding.. Have you ever ridden a bike that had a CCT fail,, heard the chain go slack, and stop the motor before damage was done?
#15
Re: WARNING - old cam chain tensioners prone to fail
There is so much talk about CCTs recently - let me share something I hope might be useful. Apologies if not.
I haven't had CCT problem on my bike (40 000 km 1997), but since I bought Shawk I catched "CCT paranoia" from my colleagues on UK VTR site and I spent first winter playing around CCT problem. I changed and gave some beating to 2 kits of CCTs (original 97 and latest), adapted Kawasaki ZZR1100 "ratchet-type" CCT for Shawk and run few hundred kms with it, removed spring from old CCT and ran bike for few km like that etc.
IMHO I disagree that there is no warnings if you do listen to your bike.
1. Sound is very very distinctive when you have slack in camtrain, tested and heard on my bike with deliberately slacked camtrain (fixing CCT in position preventing full expansion), sound heard well even thou I have extremely loud Arrows race exhaust.
2. When spring removed CCT rod does not go back easy, it needs a very considerable effort, since it is worm (is it correct term in English?) screw and as normal for this system is "self-locking" at least a bit. Tested.
3. Despite very high forces in camtrain in VTR, there is practically no tension on "rear" line of cam chain unless you do go into overrun. This is fact for all chain drives. Back then I calculated exact tension on rear line of camchain, and it's very very low. More overruns = more risk.
4. I never managed to reach full expansion of stock CCT on my bike, it still have good 2,5-3 cm movement in it, while for example Kawasaki ZZR CCT that I tried has less than half lenght movement of that Honda CCT alltogether. If your CCT fully expanded - your camtrain took horrible beating and need overhaul, do not blame CCT.
5. My local Honda garage is aware (by experience) that CCT on Shawks need change every 30 000 km to prevent problems and they do it by default.
6. If you took your CCT apart and then put them back together there is very big chance you need to throw them away, because assembly allows some almost unmeasurable in "home garage" deviations of preload of CCT spring - this is why CCTs sold pre-loaded and locked.
7. If you let your CCT expand fully when out of engine and then "loaded" them again you also have had chance to create potential failure (spring fell out if slot, preload changed etc.)
8. Even ratchet CCTs on Kawasaki's fail sometimes, when ratchet get stuck because of dirt, and when ratchet small bits get dirty and ratchet lock slips. I have had chance to imitate it on my test setup. But ZZR CCTs really less prone to failure because of ratchet.
9. Manual CCTs increase wear of camtrain and camchain guides - this is what I've been told by guys who "race" on Busa's (where manual APE CCT is first step to prepare bike for race but only for race).
10. I believe that solution used by my UK colleagues (few of us came to it independently) is a best compromise for the moment: original latest CCT with "screw lock" by means of slotted bolt in CCT cap bolt hole.
Sorry for long write-up....
I haven't had CCT problem on my bike (40 000 km 1997), but since I bought Shawk I catched "CCT paranoia" from my colleagues on UK VTR site and I spent first winter playing around CCT problem. I changed and gave some beating to 2 kits of CCTs (original 97 and latest), adapted Kawasaki ZZR1100 "ratchet-type" CCT for Shawk and run few hundred kms with it, removed spring from old CCT and ran bike for few km like that etc.
IMHO I disagree that there is no warnings if you do listen to your bike.
1. Sound is very very distinctive when you have slack in camtrain, tested and heard on my bike with deliberately slacked camtrain (fixing CCT in position preventing full expansion), sound heard well even thou I have extremely loud Arrows race exhaust.
2. When spring removed CCT rod does not go back easy, it needs a very considerable effort, since it is worm (is it correct term in English?) screw and as normal for this system is "self-locking" at least a bit. Tested.
3. Despite very high forces in camtrain in VTR, there is practically no tension on "rear" line of cam chain unless you do go into overrun. This is fact for all chain drives. Back then I calculated exact tension on rear line of camchain, and it's very very low. More overruns = more risk.
4. I never managed to reach full expansion of stock CCT on my bike, it still have good 2,5-3 cm movement in it, while for example Kawasaki ZZR CCT that I tried has less than half lenght movement of that Honda CCT alltogether. If your CCT fully expanded - your camtrain took horrible beating and need overhaul, do not blame CCT.
5. My local Honda garage is aware (by experience) that CCT on Shawks need change every 30 000 km to prevent problems and they do it by default.
6. If you took your CCT apart and then put them back together there is very big chance you need to throw them away, because assembly allows some almost unmeasurable in "home garage" deviations of preload of CCT spring - this is why CCTs sold pre-loaded and locked.
7. If you let your CCT expand fully when out of engine and then "loaded" them again you also have had chance to create potential failure (spring fell out if slot, preload changed etc.)
8. Even ratchet CCTs on Kawasaki's fail sometimes, when ratchet get stuck because of dirt, and when ratchet small bits get dirty and ratchet lock slips. I have had chance to imitate it on my test setup. But ZZR CCTs really less prone to failure because of ratchet.
9. Manual CCTs increase wear of camtrain and camchain guides - this is what I've been told by guys who "race" on Busa's (where manual APE CCT is first step to prepare bike for race but only for race).
10. I believe that solution used by my UK colleagues (few of us came to it independently) is a best compromise for the moment: original latest CCT with "screw lock" by means of slotted bolt in CCT cap bolt hole.
Sorry for long write-up....
#16
Senior Member
Back Marker
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Los Angeles, California, Canyons = SMM's, ACH,
Posts: 147
Re: WARNING - old cam chain tensioners prone to fail
Thanks for the write up Bluesman, couple of things.
9. Manual CCTs increase wear of camtrain and camchain guides -
I don't beleive this is true if you've adjusted the manuals properly.
Set them up to take the slack out and nothing more.
This is easily done by slowly backing off the adjustment CCW while the engine is idling till they just make noise. then adjusting CW till the noise just stops.
Remember your not actually preloading the chain!
(automatic tensioners preload the chain)
Your only taking the slack out. (CW adjustment till noise stops, and no more CW, then lock down the nut)
I doubt you'll ever have to adjust them again, because during valve adustments, when you pull the cams, you simply unbolt the whole manual tensioner without disturbing the adjustment.
I believe manuals give you less friction and wear in the whole valve train ,chain, chain guides, and bearings.
10. I believe that solution used by my UK colleagues (few of us came to it independently) is a best compromise for the moment: original latest CCT with "screw lock" by means of slotted bolt in CCT cap bolt hole.
The "slotted bolt" solution works, I've tried it, but I think it's a little too 'techique sensitive' for a lot of guys.
Remember, you can't just tighten a 6mm bolt in there and expect to lock the adjustment or prevent the adjustment from backing out.
It needs a bolt ground to fit the slots _full depth_.
It needs to be in the proper range of adjustment while the bolt/slot is engaged.
Then it can be locked with a 'lock nut' and works like a manual.
~Jeffers
9. Manual CCTs increase wear of camtrain and camchain guides -
I don't beleive this is true if you've adjusted the manuals properly.
Set them up to take the slack out and nothing more.
This is easily done by slowly backing off the adjustment CCW while the engine is idling till they just make noise. then adjusting CW till the noise just stops.
Remember your not actually preloading the chain!
(automatic tensioners preload the chain)
Your only taking the slack out. (CW adjustment till noise stops, and no more CW, then lock down the nut)
I doubt you'll ever have to adjust them again, because during valve adustments, when you pull the cams, you simply unbolt the whole manual tensioner without disturbing the adjustment.
I believe manuals give you less friction and wear in the whole valve train ,chain, chain guides, and bearings.
10. I believe that solution used by my UK colleagues (few of us came to it independently) is a best compromise for the moment: original latest CCT with "screw lock" by means of slotted bolt in CCT cap bolt hole.
The "slotted bolt" solution works, I've tried it, but I think it's a little too 'techique sensitive' for a lot of guys.
Remember, you can't just tighten a 6mm bolt in there and expect to lock the adjustment or prevent the adjustment from backing out.
It needs a bolt ground to fit the slots _full depth_.
It needs to be in the proper range of adjustment while the bolt/slot is engaged.
Then it can be locked with a 'lock nut' and works like a manual.
~Jeffers
#17
Re: WARNING - old cam chain tensioners prone to fail
You probably right about "wear" thing - this is what those Busa-boys told me, but they do it for drag racing, so may be they just tighten it all up to different specs...or may be it is down to fact that APE CCT does not have rubber vibration dampener on rod...don;t know.
For "slot bolt" solution - yes, sorry - I did not mention details because I saw instruction on that method posted here already...sure, you have to do all that....there was an quick video on that posted by UK guys. I'll try to find it back. I am still trying to figure out how to keep self-adjusting process...that's why I went for ZZR CCTs....One other thing that concerns me in this solution is that you have to do good job preventing oil leak from CCT with this solution... So - no, not perfect either...
For "slot bolt" solution - yes, sorry - I did not mention details because I saw instruction on that method posted here already...sure, you have to do all that....there was an quick video on that posted by UK guys. I'll try to find it back. I am still trying to figure out how to keep self-adjusting process...that's why I went for ZZR CCTs....One other thing that concerns me in this solution is that you have to do good job preventing oil leak from CCT with this solution... So - no, not perfect either...
#19
Any idea what the original paint dot color was for a 1998 Superhawk? I took a look at mine since I just bought a bike with 28k miles and the paint dot looks white. I don't know if that's faded from the orange color or maybe just the original. Is the part number stamped or cast on them somewhere? Can I check the extension of the tensioner(s) without having to replace gaskets? The bike sounds a little funny to me sometimes, but this is my first sportbike and first v-twin. I'm used to single-cylinder dirtbikes and car engines.
#21
Craptacular! So... Does anyone know what Honda did to "improve" the "tensioner lifter"? Do they still need to be replaced at 20-40k mile intervals or so? It seems like even if a manual CCT has drawbacks in having to adjust it frequently or needing a sensitive touch to adjust, it would be beneficial in that you could keep an eye on the cam chain stretch indirectly by the amount of adjustment left. I'm kinda leaning toward manual ones unless there's a compelling reason to go with the auto's.
#22
Since I didn't see a response and couldn't find any information I decided to call Honda. Their customer service rep said there was never a tech bulletin or recall on the part. They called the product specialist for the VTR and that person didn’t have any information either. They said sometimes part numbers change if the packaging changes or they change warehouses (basically if any small thing changes). So the part number change could be for something as little as the new orange paint dot. Keep an eye on your tensioners.
Service Honda sells the tensioner for ~$48.50 and gaskets for ~$1.50
Service Honda sells the tensioner for ~$48.50 and gaskets for ~$1.50
#24
Re: WARNING - old cam chain tensioners prone to fail
FYI, I have about 18,000 miles on my 98, and the cam chain tensioner went out last year. There was a GOD AWFUL rattle when it happened. I got lucky that no other damage was done.
Jeff
redsuperhawk
Jeff
redsuperhawk
#25
I'm not going to take the chance on a used one or the ones that are on the bike. I know it's got 28,000 on the odo and white paint dots on the tensioners. I ordered new ones (from Service Honda) for the cheap insurance against this type of failure.
I had the cam chain stretch beyond the service limit on my XR600 a few years ago. That thing caused me all kinds of problems and made a bunch of bad noise and quit a few times randomly. Somehow I managed to get lucky and not completely grenade the engine.
I had the cam chain stretch beyond the service limit on my XR600 a few years ago. That thing caused me all kinds of problems and made a bunch of bad noise and quit a few times randomly. Somehow I managed to get lucky and not completely grenade the engine.
#26
Re: WARNING - old cam chain tensioners prone to fail
my local honda dealer told me 66.50 for the cct's???each. sounds like a monopoly to me.I'm leaning toward the manual cct's but I was curious how often they needed adjusted?I like riding my short season rather than servicing.let me know yardstick how your auto cct's work out please
#27
Re: WARNING - old cam chain tensioners prone to fail
I replaced the ones on my other engine at about 29.5K miles with the APE manual ones. When that engine decided to go I kept them for my new motor , but have'nt changed them out, cause the new motor only has 1700 miles on it.
#28
Re: WARNING - old cam chain tensioners prone to fail
I had myself convinced that if Honda did a redesign of a part that was causing this kind of catastrophic failure it would be better than ever and probably never fail! After talking to the customer service rep and finding out they might have just chanegd the part number because they got a new batch of paint I'm disappointed.
Anybody want to trade a set of new automatic tensioners with a fancy orange paint dot for a set of new APE manual adjusters?
Anybody want to trade a set of new automatic tensioners with a fancy orange paint dot for a set of new APE manual adjusters?
#29
Re: WARNING - old cam chain tensioners prone to fail
I've got 20,000 miles on my bike.wow does that look like an awful lot of miles but after all the discussion I'm swaying towards the manual cct's.Is this a.p.e. company the only ones that make these??
#30
According to another discussion on the subject around here there is (or was) another company making manual CCT's. It looks like APE's are the most popular though. There's an e-bay seller that sells them for less than they can be had direct from APE. I think it was around $47 last time I checked.