'nother damn CCT thread
05-11-2010 | 05:53 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Member
Squid
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 71
From: Glenwood Springs, CO
'nother damn CCT thread
My '98 has 19,000 miles on it and runs perfectly. The engine displays no unusual rattles on cold start-up and I am VERY reluctant to take it apart.
The local 65 year old mechanic, who has been at it since he was a teenager, insists that a discernable rattle will be present upon cold start-up well before a stock CCT will fail. I know that has not been the experience of some on this forum, but I question the statistical probability of such an occurance in the presents of constantly monitoring for cold start-up noise.
I read in places like the Motorcycle Registries (where VTR's are the largest category BTW), http://micapeak.com/reg/bikes/, where people have very high mileage bikes and the subject of CCT's never comes up. In fact, I can read VTR testimonials over there until I'm blue in the face and never run across any drama such as those I see here, mostly by people who just decided to spend a hundred bucks and "a couple of hours" for "peace of mind".
I guess I wouldn't be posting here if I didn't want peace of mine too, but constantly adjusting the tension and always wondering wheather I got it right or not doesn't sound like the path to enlightenment to me.
The local 65 year old mechanic, who has been at it since he was a teenager, insists that a discernable rattle will be present upon cold start-up well before a stock CCT will fail. I know that has not been the experience of some on this forum, but I question the statistical probability of such an occurance in the presents of constantly monitoring for cold start-up noise.
I read in places like the Motorcycle Registries (where VTR's are the largest category BTW), http://micapeak.com/reg/bikes/, where people have very high mileage bikes and the subject of CCT's never comes up. In fact, I can read VTR testimonials over there until I'm blue in the face and never run across any drama such as those I see here, mostly by people who just decided to spend a hundred bucks and "a couple of hours" for "peace of mind".
I guess I wouldn't be posting here if I didn't want peace of mine too, but constantly adjusting the tension and always wondering wheather I got it right or not doesn't sound like the path to enlightenment to me.
05-11-2010 | 06:21 PM
#2
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
Well, one thing YOU have got decidedly wrong though is when you talk about them needing to be constantly adjusted... I have in 10k-15k (on manual CCT's) adjusted them once, and that was because I couldn't leave well enough alone... Not because it was needed...
As for setting them right... If they rattle at warm up and go quiet at temp, then you got it right... Other way around is wrong... It's that simple...
BTW get riding... 19k on 98 is barely broken in... I do that in 3 years or less...
As for setting them right... If they rattle at warm up and go quiet at temp, then you got it right... Other way around is wrong... It's that simple...
BTW get riding... 19k on 98 is barely broken in... I do that in 3 years or less...
05-11-2010 | 08:23 PM
#4
Senior Member
Back Marker
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 135
From: Glenview, IL
All i know is that at 24k my engine had a washing machine with loose change noise. after swaping to manual the noise is gone.
Did i need to change it, i don't know, reading the posts looks like it was a good idea, Engine would run close to a grand? i paid 3 for the bike... too big of a ratio for my taste. was i willing to take a chance over 100 bucks (80 actualy thanks truck) and pay for a new engine? Nope.
Did i need to change it, i don't know, reading the posts looks like it was a good idea, Engine would run close to a grand? i paid 3 for the bike... too big of a ratio for my taste. was i willing to take a chance over 100 bucks (80 actualy thanks truck) and pay for a new engine? Nope.
05-11-2010 | 09:26 PM
#5
2nd mouse gets the cheese
SuperBike
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,697
From: Beaverton, OR
here is the problem with trying to get a statistical number. One the amount of bikes needed to get an accurate probability would be thousands. The reason for that is the mileage numbers of peoples bikes that have had a known cct failure are all over the boards. The second is a good number of people replaced them even when they didn't need to. Here is the thing though you would be foolish to run any interference motor past its service interval on timing parts. Would you run your timing belt on your car way past its change interval. This is the same thing, I think it is silly to replace it with another part that will again need to be replaced instead do it once and never think about it again just swap it for a manual one. Also your mechanic friend is right in regards to most motors, but I have seen people have cct failure here enough to not want to experience that myself. Consider it ca happen suddenly with or without warning it again is better early.
05-11-2010 | 09:29 PM
#6
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,548
From: MN
the stock ones sometimes fail. very rarely from all I can tell given the number of bikes out there and number of miles ridden. High mileage maybe worth doing, or maybe during the 15K valve check??
On the other hand, replacing the stock ones, at least from just the sample size on this forum, when done by your average forum person, at least as commonly results in valve train failure as it does prevent problems!!! there is yet another one just posted the other day. So,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, do it if you feel the need. But either have it done professional, or follow the very nice instructions on this site very carefully. I can not bear to read another thread titled something like "CCT install - now terrible engine noise - what did I break?"
On the other hand, replacing the stock ones, at least from just the sample size on this forum, when done by your average forum person, at least as commonly results in valve train failure as it does prevent problems!!! there is yet another one just posted the other day. So,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, do it if you feel the need. But either have it done professional, or follow the very nice instructions on this site very carefully. I can not bear to read another thread titled something like "CCT install - now terrible engine noise - what did I break?"
05-11-2010 | 09:30 PM
#7
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,548
From: MN
05-11-2010 | 10:57 PM
#8
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,547
From: Way Out West
My front cylinder cam chain started rattling like a son of a bitch at about 5k miles. If it hadn't, I never would have given it a second thought. Because it did, I replaced the stock units with APEs. Despite what your mechanic dude says, I had no audible noise at start up or idle. Plenty of rattle can noise under steady state cruising and more if I backed off the throttle. Constantly monitoring for noise? I installed the manual CCTs many thousands of miles ago, haven't touched them since. No noise. If I ever get the noise again, I'll crank them in until it stops.
But again, If you don't have any cam chain rattle, I'd forget about it unless and until I did.
But again, If you don't have any cam chain rattle, I'd forget about it unless and until I did.
05-11-2010 | 11:15 PM
#9
Thread Starter
Member
Squid
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 71
From: Glenwood Springs, CO
Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. Cornandp, that picture of the CX500 at the start of your new thread is bitchin', a little Guz for sure. cilby, I read that thread you linked to, maybe it's what prompted me to start this thread. Malah, you sort of make my mechanic's point that chain noise is a problem and it sounds like you fixed it with the addition of the APES. I have little doubt that I will be able to install these properly by myself, I just question the need to do so in the absence of any noise whatsoever. It seems I saw somewhere here on the Forum that Honda changed the design of the CCT in about '02 or some such and the new part number is more reliable. I have owned about 10 Honda motorcycles and 5 Honda automobiles over the past 40 years, and the need to re-engineer one has never come up until now. My '83 V45 Interceptor had some cam surface issues that were dealt with by a factory service bulletin, but no such document has been issued regarding the CCT's in our bikes, to the best of my knowlege. So that leaves me with 3 options; do nothing and wait to see if a noise develops, replace with the new P/N OEM, or go with the aftermarket manuals. I like the long and very high speed roads in Utah when I get the chance to go and ride for a few days, and the thought in the back of my mind that it could just go boom someplace out in the middle of the Navajo Reservation is disconcerting to say the least.
Thanks again for all the responses,
Ken
Thanks again for all the responses,
Ken
05-12-2010 | 03:47 AM
#10
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 667
From: NY State
JB
05-12-2010 | 07:32 AM
#12
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. Cornandp, that picture of the CX500 at the start of your new thread is bitchin', a little Guz for sure. cilby, I read that thread you linked to, maybe it's what prompted me to start this thread. Malah, you sort of make my mechanic's point that chain noise is a problem and it sounds like you fixed it with the addition of the APES. I have little doubt that I will be able to install these properly by myself, I just question the need to do so in the absence of any noise whatsoever. It seems I saw somewhere here on the Forum that Honda changed the design of the CCT in about '02 or some such and the new part number is more reliable. I have owned about 10 Honda motorcycles and 5 Honda automobiles over the past 40 years, and the need to re-engineer one has never come up until now. My '83 V45 Interceptor had some cam surface issues that were dealt with by a factory service bulletin, but no such document has been issued regarding the CCT's in our bikes, to the best of my knowlege. So that leaves me with 3 options; do nothing and wait to see if a noise develops, replace with the new P/N OEM, or go with the aftermarket manuals. I like the long and very high speed roads in Utah when I get the chance to go and ride for a few days, and the thought in the back of my mind that it could just go boom someplace out in the middle of the Navajo Reservation is disconcerting to say the least.
Thanks again for all the responses,
Ken
Thanks again for all the responses,
Ken
So I wouldn't pin any great hopes on that new part# since honda has been known to swap part# on stuff for no reason... An example for you... The bolt holding the tank at the rear... That has a new part# at some point... And it's the same bolt...
And sorry... But a service bulletin from Honda on how to deal with the CCT's and their failure does exist... It's mostly useless, but it exists... It states very clearly that the CCT's are a wear item that should be periodicly replaced... It doesent however give ANY information on wear tolerances or any other useful information on when to replace... I imagine that's because there is no reliable way... That is unless you take it apart and measure that spring, but then it would be easier just to replace the CCT...
The conclusion is rather simple... Either you stick to OEM CCT's... And the you NEED to replace them periodicly, your guess is as good as mine on what interval... Or get manual one's and adjust them once properly and then again at say 10k intervals if you really want a save conservative number... Or at 25k... Or when they start to rattle... I though the choice was fairly simple...
05-12-2010 | 08:25 AM
#15
2nd mouse gets the cheese
SuperBike
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,697
From: Beaverton, OR
I think we need to start a "I will help you if you are too scared to change your cct's" thread and one person from every state should step up and be that guy. I will take Oregon and southern Washington 
. Because honestly the fear of the job seems like the larger problem here. Those that say to play it safe have a hard time getting our point across because some people are just to afraid to tackle this themselves. I don't blame them there is the potential to do more damage if you are not careful. I have done the job several times now and will gladly help anyone in the area who hasn't once we are done though its time for a ride, thats my only requirement.
So if it is fear don't be afraid to ask the other local hawk riders for help.
. Because honestly the fear of the job seems like the larger problem here. Those that say to play it safe have a hard time getting our point across because some people are just to afraid to tackle this themselves. I don't blame them there is the potential to do more damage if you are not careful. I have done the job several times now and will gladly help anyone in the area who hasn't once we are done though its time for a ride, thats my only requirement.So if it is fear don't be afraid to ask the other local hawk riders for help.
05-12-2010 | 08:52 AM
#16
Thread Starter
Member
Squid
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 71
From: Glenwood Springs, CO
That tears it Tweety, I just ordered a set of APE's in red, I so hope they match the bike. The thought of some lawyerly written SB stating that the CCT's do occasionally fail (and no, we're NOT going to fix your bike because you should have read the SB) is enough for me to get down to fixing the problem. Multi thanks again to all for the energetic responses to my concerns.
OT, I just got a new Joe Rocket RKT101 carbon fiber helmet from HJC on ebay for $195 delivered. It's the total ****.
OT, I just got a new Joe Rocket RKT101 carbon fiber helmet from HJC on ebay for $195 delivered. It's the total ****.
05-12-2010 | 10:34 AM
#17
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,548
From: MN
I think we need to start a "I will help you if you are too scared to change your cct's" thread and one person from every state should step up and be that guy. I will take Oregon and southern Washington . Because honestly the fear of the job seems like the larger problem here. Those that say to play it safe have a hard time getting our point across because some people are just to afraid to tackle this themselves. I don't blame them there is the potential to do more damage if you are not careful. I have done the job several times now and will gladly help anyone in the area who hasn't once we are done though its time for a ride, thats my only requirement.
So if it is fear don't be afraid to ask the other local hawk riders for help.
. Because honestly the fear of the job seems like the larger problem here. Those that say to play it safe have a hard time getting our point across because some people are just to afraid to tackle this themselves. I don't blame them there is the potential to do more damage if you are not careful. I have done the job several times now and will gladly help anyone in the area who hasn't once we are done though its time for a ride, thats my only requirement.So if it is fear don't be afraid to ask the other local hawk riders for help.
I think in general if you are comfortable adjusting your own valves, not checking, but adjusting on these bikes then do the CCT swap. In fact just do it at the 15K check. If not either committ to learning how with help or just have a shop do it.
05-12-2010 | 10:36 AM
#18
Boosted
SuperSport
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 642
From: Sioux Falls, SD
You'll feel differently when a CCT or an R/R leaves you stranded. All of sudden that "peace of mind" is priceless.
05-12-2010 | 11:13 AM
#19
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 667
From: NY State
Well... I have personally dissected a 97 CCT, a 2002 CCT and a 2006 CCT after failure... No difference what so ever to the naked eye... The part that fails according to all that have dissected their failed ones are the spring in there either outright breaking or through vibration becoming unable to re-set tension correctly...
JB
PS - just kidding
05-12-2010 | 01:53 PM
#21
Senior Member
Back Marker
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 115
From: Upstate NY
I like the idea of having someone who knows what they're doing help out if they so desire. The KLR guys have tech days where they do much the same thing, that is, get someone who knows what they're doing to help others with a known issue on the bike. If nothing else it's a great excuse to take a trip somewhere and drink some beer.
05-12-2010 | 02:48 PM
#22
pragmatic anarchist
Superstock
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 380
From: Philadelphia, PA
Philadelphia area help available. Garage space with music and decent tools. I'm a fairly experienced mechanic but I've often been tempted to go pro beer drinking. If only I were a bit younger!
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