when is a 'hawk not a 'hawk??
06-10-2012 | 01:56 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 28
From: somerset, UK.
when is a 'hawk not a 'hawk??
i've entered my bike in the 'VTR of the month' competition, here...
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...88/#post335194
reading the posts below mine in that thread, it seems that some members don't consider it a 'proper' 'hawk.
legally, the identity of a bike is with the unmodified frame, but i'd contest that the soul, character, identity of a 'hawk is the motor...
so....
how much can you modify a 'hawk and still call it a 'hawk??
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...88/#post335194
reading the posts below mine in that thread, it seems that some members don't consider it a 'proper' 'hawk.
legally, the identity of a bike is with the unmodified frame, but i'd contest that the soul, character, identity of a 'hawk is the motor...
so....
how much can you modify a 'hawk and still call it a 'hawk??
06-10-2012 | 05:51 AM
#3
99 superhawk
Superstock
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 256
From: jasper Ga.
I think it is a nice bike don't get the wrong impression . however a hawk no. i believe there a a few others that have gone edgingly over the line. but i must say this not sure really where the line should be drawn technically. however i cans this much when you change a bike so much that simply putting a different motor in it makes it a different brand then it's too far. for instance if someone brings in a busa with a .tr motor no it isn't a hawk. its a busa with a vtr motor. if i or even of someone brings a oc chopper with a vtr motor it isn't a hawk. its an obvious thing. a ford truck with chevy motor doesn't make it a chevy its a ford truck with a chevy motor. hope this helps clarify some.
06-10-2012 | 06:13 AM
#4
Administrator
MotoGP
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,402
From: Kempner, TX
Well as you asked for an opinion on a public internet forum... It's like art..
I don't know art, but I know what i like.
I don't know where the line is that makes a Super Hawk no longer a Super Hawk, but I know your bike has crossed over it.
To the street fighter is the same ideal.. NO, not IMHO.. A Street fighter is still a bike in the same Sport bike genera.. What you built Rob is a custom one off street cruiser with a SH engine, as nice as it is, it's no longer a SuperHawk, or a Modified one..
I can admire the fab work done to a project, and still have a different opinion on the final outcome..
I don't know art, but I know what i like.
I don't know where the line is that makes a Super Hawk no longer a Super Hawk, but I know your bike has crossed over it.
To the street fighter is the same ideal.. NO, not IMHO.. A Street fighter is still a bike in the same Sport bike genera.. What you built Rob is a custom one off street cruiser with a SH engine, as nice as it is, it's no longer a SuperHawk, or a Modified one..
I can admire the fab work done to a project, and still have a different opinion on the final outcome..
06-10-2012 | 06:16 AM
#5
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 28
From: somerset, UK.
I think it is a nice bike don't get the wrong impression . however a hawk no. i believe there a a few others that have gone edgingly over the line. but i must say this not sure really where the line should be drawn technically. however i cans this much when you change a bike so much that simply putting a different motor in it makes it a different brand then it's too far. for instance if someone brings in a busa with a .tr motor no it isn't a hawk. its a busa with a vtr motor. if i or even of someone brings a oc chopper with a vtr motor it isn't a hawk. its an obvious thing. a ford truck with chevy motor doesn't make it a chevy its a ford truck with a chevy motor. hope this helps clarify some.
perhaps there should be a percentage of standard hawk remaining in order for it to be a hawk still?? the obvious figure would be 51%....
but 51% of what?? weight?? surface area?? volume??
specifying a standard frame would eliminate any moriwaki's and moriwaki copies, with the 'ears' welded onto the frame for the extra swingarm pivot.
it's a bit like the old chestnut of when is a harley not a harley?? there's plenty of "harleys" out there with nothing harley on them at all.... S&S motor, Baker tranny, custom frame, DNA forks, Zodiac wheels etc, etc, etc....
06-10-2012 | 06:19 AM
#6
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 28
From: somerset, UK.
Well as you asked for an opinion on a public internet forum... It's like art..
I don't know art, but I know what i like.
I don't know where the line is that makes a Super Hawk no longer a Super Hawk, but I know your bike has crossed over it.
To the street fighter is the same ideal.. NO, not IMHO.. A Street fighter is still a bike in the same Sport bike genera.. What you built Rob is a custom one off street cruiser with a SH engine, as nice as it is, it's no longer a SuperHawk, or a Modified one..
I can admire the fab work done to a project, and still have a different opinion on the final outcome..
I don't know art, but I know what i like.
I don't know where the line is that makes a Super Hawk no longer a Super Hawk, but I know your bike has crossed over it.
To the street fighter is the same ideal.. NO, not IMHO.. A Street fighter is still a bike in the same Sport bike genera.. What you built Rob is a custom one off street cruiser with a SH engine, as nice as it is, it's no longer a SuperHawk, or a Modified one..
I can admire the fab work done to a project, and still have a different opinion on the final outcome..
i'm guessing it's gonna be in a different place for everyone.....
06-10-2012 | 06:27 AM
#7
Administrator
MotoGP
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,402
From: Kempner, TX
the SH is a sport bike, if it's is turned in to a flat track bike with different forks, shock, wheels, and tires.. It's across the line.
If you take a SH, and MOD the stock frame, build the stock motor, change the wheels, add a lower fairing, upgrade the suspension, and end up with a Sport bike....I'd say that is a SH still.
And yes, the line will be blurry and somewhat different for all.
Again, I admire the FAB work in your bike, well done... Nothing else said in this thread takes away from that.
06-10-2012 | 06:35 AM
#9
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 277
From: south nj (philly area)
I wouldnt consider this a hawk however you should be proud of what you have done great work!!
The mori frame to me is still a hawk because that was done for the factory race team... id say a modified frame is still a hawk but a one of frame regardless of desigh is no longer a hawk...
The mori frame to me is still a hawk because that was done for the factory race team... id say a modified frame is still a hawk but a one of frame regardless of desigh is no longer a hawk...
06-10-2012 | 06:40 AM
#10
99 superhawk
Superstock
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 256
From: jasper Ga.
so, as i said in the other thread, by that definition, if i put a ducati 916 motor in an otherwise standard 'hawk, that would be ok?? IMHO, i think not.
and you would be right.. it would be a hawk body with a ducati motor but not a true hawk. however that would be still a hawk as you stated earlier its in the body the design intention and recognition is still there...but recognition is a key aspect all else comes under suspect. Even a street fighter loses its hawk recognition when fairings are removed INHO because it no longer has that unique design that made the hawk a sport bike and identity.
perhaps there should be a percentage of standard hawk remaining in order for it to be a hawk still?? the obvious figure would be 51%....
but 51% of what?? weight?? surface area?? volume??
specifying a standard frame would eliminate any moriwaki's and moriwaki copies, with the 'ears' welded onto the frame for the extra swingarm pivot.
it's a bit like the old chestnut of when is a harley not a harley?? there's plenty of "harleys" out there with nothing harley on them at all.... S&S motor, Baker tranny, custom frame, DNA forks, Zodiac wheels etc, etc, etc....
and you would be right.. it would be a hawk body with a ducati motor but not a true hawk. however that would be still a hawk as you stated earlier its in the body the design intention and recognition is still there...but recognition is a key aspect all else comes under suspect. Even a street fighter loses its hawk recognition when fairings are removed INHO because it no longer has that unique design that made the hawk a sport bike and identity.
perhaps there should be a percentage of standard hawk remaining in order for it to be a hawk still?? the obvious figure would be 51%....
but 51% of what?? weight?? surface area?? volume??
specifying a standard frame would eliminate any moriwaki's and moriwaki copies, with the 'ears' welded onto the frame for the extra swingarm pivot.
it's a bit like the old chestnut of when is a harley not a harley?? there's plenty of "harleys" out there with nothing harley on them at all.... S&S motor, Baker tranny, custom frame, DNA forks, Zodiac wheels etc, etc, etc....
06-10-2012 | 06:42 AM
#11
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
I'd say, the bike has to maintain it's basic style and design intent, as well as motor and frame ... not stock, but based on stock.
the SH is a sport bike, if it's is turned in to a flat track bike with different forks, shock, wheels, and tires.. It's across the line.
If you take a SH, and MOD the stock frame, build the stock motor, change the wheels, add a lower fairing, upgrade the suspension, and end up with a Sport bike....I'd say that is a SH still.
And yes, the line will be blurry and somewhat different for all.
Again, I admire the FAB work in your bike, well done... Nothing else said in this thread takes away from that.
the SH is a sport bike, if it's is turned in to a flat track bike with different forks, shock, wheels, and tires.. It's across the line.
If you take a SH, and MOD the stock frame, build the stock motor, change the wheels, add a lower fairing, upgrade the suspension, and end up with a Sport bike....I'd say that is a SH still.
And yes, the line will be blurry and somewhat different for all.
Again, I admire the FAB work in your bike, well done... Nothing else said in this thread takes away from that.
If you take a SH and modify it, either by welding on ears to the frame, or putting Moriwaki bits in the engine, it remains a SH... It's a sportbike, (or sport-tourer, to go by Honda's words) and it has the same basic purpose as before... If you strip the fairings, and swap things around, that remains the same as well... Albeit there is a limit there as well...
But if you make an entirely different frame, with an entirely different purpose, then it's not an SH anymore... Putting a duc engine in a SH chassis, isn't an SH by far either... But it's not a duc either... It's a custom... And your bike is certainly a custom...
But do I think it shouldn't be allowed in the VTROM? Hell no! I'll vote for it... But it's NOT AN SH...
To be fair, my bike is probably borderline at best by now if you look at how much i have changed on it, and from where I have sourced the parts... But by the defenition above, it remains a sportbike, and despite all the changes it's still similar enough that someone not knowledge about these bikes will have to compare it side by side with a stock bike to tell what I have done to it...
06-10-2012 | 07:18 AM
#12
Moderator
MotoGP
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,116
From: Gettysburg, Pa
Agree w/ Erik 100%. And I really don't think Tweety's hawk is borderline. It's definitely Superhawk. The motor, frame and bodywork is all there (@ least I think LOL).
06-10-2012 | 11:38 AM
#15
Crash
Superstock
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 309
From: nashville
if the performance or handling is destroyed its not a hawk. nothing wrong with improving. I would drive it as a second bike if didn't have ape hangers on it and bigger tank where i could make it more than 70 miles on a tank of gas.
06-10-2012 | 02:40 PM
#16
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 28
From: somerset, UK.
ok, to take this a bit further...
i did consider this before i went down the route i did...
a one off ducati style trellis frame, 'hawk motor and seat unit, VFR800 tank, the R1 forks and front wheel, VFR800 single sided arm and triumph 3 spoke wheel, how about that??
i did consider this before i went down the route i did...
a one off ducati style trellis frame, 'hawk motor and seat unit, VFR800 tank, the R1 forks and front wheel, VFR800 single sided arm and triumph 3 spoke wheel, how about that??
06-10-2012 | 02:45 PM
#17
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
As are the trellis framed VTR engined bike with hubsteering that's around...
Or the Kaminari, it's a custom, even if the frame and engine is re-used...
06-10-2012 | 03:03 PM
#18
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 28
From: somerset, UK.
ok, so we're nialling it down gradually...
bike to be based on a standard frame and engine package, but modifications allowed. keeping the ethos of the original bike, and keeping the basic outline/sillouette so as to be still recognisable as a 'hawk to a lay-person.
how's that?
bike to be based on a standard frame and engine package, but modifications allowed. keeping the ethos of the original bike, and keeping the basic outline/sillouette so as to be still recognisable as a 'hawk to a lay-person.
how's that?
06-10-2012 | 04:19 PM
#20
Seasoned tech
SuperSport
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 576
From: Issaquah, WA
I'm in agreeance that even if the frame is changed with another designed to be an improvement but based on the stocker such as the Moriwaki frames, as well as the basic engine is the same along with the general look of the bike such as maintaining the upper fairings etc. so that the general essance and purpose of the bike remains it's still a hawk. I'd also consider the naked hawk a hawk being it is still basically mostly Hawk, just minus the fairings and just a few safety items added such as headlight, mirrors, and blinkers that go away with the fairing.
06-10-2012 | 05:54 PM
#21
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,871
From: Phoenix, AZ
Are we really trying to define subjectivity? What if it has all stock parts with the exception of being a trike? What if it's dismantled and in pieces all hanging from your wall as art? What if it wins VTROTM? What if it's purple and can transform into an Autobot?
I say if it has a scantily clad model on it, it's a 'Hawk, so prove that yours is!
I say if it has a scantily clad model on it, it's a 'Hawk, so prove that yours is!
06-10-2012 | 07:52 PM
#23
99 superhawk
Superstock
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 256
From: jasper Ga.
ok, so we're nialling it down gradually...
bike to be based on a standard frame and engine package, but modifications allowed. keeping the ethos of the original bike, and keeping the basic outline/sillouette so as to be still recognisable as a 'hawk to a lay-person.
how's that?
bike to be based on a standard frame and engine package, but modifications allowed. keeping the ethos of the original bike, and keeping the basic outline/sillouette so as to be still recognisable as a 'hawk to a lay-person.
how's that?
agreed with that sum-up +-
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