started to adjust my cct
05-06-2011 | 06:51 PM
#1
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From: thorold ontario
started to adjust my cct
well the front is in a summabitch of a spot to get to. ill leave it at that.
i ended up trying the method where you tighten them until the motor starts to bog and then you back it off a bit. the back one i must have given a turn and a half to or better and then it finally started to bog the motor a little, the front one seemed fine where it was. i was going to use the back off till it ticks method but i thought it might cause more harm than good especially since i have a little tick in there already after doing the clutch, so i wanted to make sure it wasnt backed off to the point where it would cause damage. i tried the hand tighten method but, and ill be honest, i was too lazy to lift the tank and remove the air box to do the front. so instead i just shoved my hands in there, burnt them a little, and in the end won the battle. well it still runs so hows that for winning.
question though, what happens if i over tighten them? and what rpm are your bikes idling at? i let mine get to just around operating temp but at 900 or so rpm it runs for a bit and dies, seems happy at 1100-1200 rpm. but my carbs need a re sync as i had them off not too long ago.
i ended up trying the method where you tighten them until the motor starts to bog and then you back it off a bit. the back one i must have given a turn and a half to or better and then it finally started to bog the motor a little, the front one seemed fine where it was. i was going to use the back off till it ticks method but i thought it might cause more harm than good especially since i have a little tick in there already after doing the clutch, so i wanted to make sure it wasnt backed off to the point where it would cause damage. i tried the hand tighten method but, and ill be honest, i was too lazy to lift the tank and remove the air box to do the front. so instead i just shoved my hands in there, burnt them a little, and in the end won the battle. well it still runs so hows that for winning.
question though, what happens if i over tighten them? and what rpm are your bikes idling at? i let mine get to just around operating temp but at 900 or so rpm it runs for a bit and dies, seems happy at 1100-1200 rpm. but my carbs need a re sync as i had them off not too long ago.
05-06-2011 | 07:54 PM
#2
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<snip>... so i wanted to make sure it wasnt backed off to the point where it would cause damage. i tried the hand tighten method but, and ill be honest, i was too lazy to lift the tank and remove the air box to do the front. so instead i just shoved my hands in there, burnt them a little, and in the end won the battle. well it still runs so hows that for winning.
if i remember right, 1100-1200K idle is spec... or just a tad over. that's what mine likes ...i mean liked... as well.
i believe that if you over-tighten them, you introduce accelerated wear to the chain and guides.
1 minor side-track that you reminded me of:
Service Manual page 1-23, 1-24, 5-4 and others. 1998-99. also, the fiche exploded views.
is it just my manual and my PAIR mounting bracket and my damaged brain or does Honda misrepresent the actual orientation of the PAIR mounting bracket and attachment screw to make it look like it was designed by someone with a brain, rather than the way mine can only be oriented and mounted in its impossible to reach mounting orientation.
after between about 15 and 20, 1 hour grunt sessions over the years reinstall PAIR mounting screw, i finally got wise and decided to leave the damn thing attached to the airbox and just pull the relatively simple-to-reach PAIR hoses. i want a PAIRectomy that loses the hardware.
--fred
05-07-2011 | 01:38 AM
#4
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i like your style, Man. the tank and air box are about as much fun to pull and re-install as a cracked tooth. small 1st and second degree burns on arms and hands are worth avoiding the tank/air box circus. good work!
if i remember right, 1100-1200K idle is spec... or just a tad over. that's what mine likes ...i mean liked... as well.
i believe that if you over-tighten them, you introduce accelerated wear to the chain and guides.
1 minor side-track that you reminded me of:
Service Manual page 1-23, 1-24, 5-4 and others. 1998-99. also, the fiche exploded views.
is it just my manual and my PAIR mounting bracket and my damaged brain or does Honda misrepresent the actual orientation of the PAIR mounting bracket and attachment screw to make it look like it was designed by someone with a brain, rather than the way mine can only be oriented and mounted in its impossible to reach mounting orientation.
after between about 15 and 20, 1 hour grunt sessions over the years reinstall PAIR mounting screw, i finally got wise and decided to leave the damn thing attached to the airbox and just pull the relatively simple-to-reach PAIR hoses. i want a PAIRectomy that loses the hardware.
--fred
if i remember right, 1100-1200K idle is spec... or just a tad over. that's what mine likes ...i mean liked... as well.
i believe that if you over-tighten them, you introduce accelerated wear to the chain and guides.
1 minor side-track that you reminded me of:
Service Manual page 1-23, 1-24, 5-4 and others. 1998-99. also, the fiche exploded views.
is it just my manual and my PAIR mounting bracket and my damaged brain or does Honda misrepresent the actual orientation of the PAIR mounting bracket and attachment screw to make it look like it was designed by someone with a brain, rather than the way mine can only be oriented and mounted in its impossible to reach mounting orientation.
after between about 15 and 20, 1 hour grunt sessions over the years reinstall PAIR mounting screw, i finally got wise and decided to leave the damn thing attached to the airbox and just pull the relatively simple-to-reach PAIR hoses. i want a PAIRectomy that loses the hardware.
--fred
05-07-2011 | 06:47 AM
#5
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From: thorold ontario
the front isnt bad when the engine isnt fully warm yet, but that big coolant line gets warm quick when these things just sit around idling. i had my hand shoved in there regardless. although i may re adjust them today with the engine off and just use the finger tight then back off a bit method. but that means the tank and airbox are coming off for the front because i cant get a good enough grip on the front just through the frame
05-07-2011 | 06:56 AM
#6
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From: thorold ontario
sorry meant finger tight then add about a 1/4 and take it from there. my brain is in a mish mash last couple days. way too much on my mind 
the crappy thing is my rear cct is leaking oil, has been since day one. right from the rod that puts tension on the chain. so i stopped it with some gasket maker. had to peel that off to do the adjusting so i guess i get to re apply it again. trust me when i say im not yanking the rear cct to fix it
the crappy thing is my rear cct is leaking oil, has been since day one. right from the rod that puts tension on the chain. so i stopped it with some gasket maker. had to peel that off to do the adjusting so i guess i get to re apply it again. trust me when i say im not yanking the rear cct to fix it
05-07-2011 | 07:15 AM
#7
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From: Skurup, Sweden
Uchi... You really need to have one fact straight... If you don't, you risk damaging the engine long term...
THE ONLY CORRECT WAY OF SETTING THE CCT'S ARE WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING... !!!
Ok, now that that's clear, lets sort this out a bit more detailed...
Setting the CCT's finger tight + whatever at assembly and installation is a safe starting point, nothing else...
If you do that, you know the engine won't implode on start-up... It's tight enough that the chain cant skip, making the valves meet a piston, and it's not tight enough to cause a problem, since people aren't stronger than hulk... But on 99 out of 100 bikes, it's never, ever the correct setting... So going back to it now, you are only setting yourself up to stick your hands in there and roast them once again...
The correct setting on ALL bikes is what you reach if you to set it at a safe point, bring it to full working temp without playing with the throttle, and then adjust it...
And that should be when it's tight enough to be quiet when warm, and loose enough that it doesn't bog down the engine on a cold start... It will at this point undoubtedly make noise at start, but quiet down once everything is warm and all tolerances are like they should when running...
The span in between those limits aren't that tight, there is a little wiggle room, and that's normal... So you might not get it 100% spot on, but trust me, neither does the stock OEM one's...
THE ONLY CORRECT WAY OF SETTING THE CCT'S ARE WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING... !!!
Ok, now that that's clear, lets sort this out a bit more detailed...
Setting the CCT's finger tight + whatever at assembly and installation is a safe starting point, nothing else...
If you do that, you know the engine won't implode on start-up... It's tight enough that the chain cant skip, making the valves meet a piston, and it's not tight enough to cause a problem, since people aren't stronger than hulk... But on 99 out of 100 bikes, it's never, ever the correct setting... So going back to it now, you are only setting yourself up to stick your hands in there and roast them once again...
The correct setting on ALL bikes is what you reach if you to set it at a safe point, bring it to full working temp without playing with the throttle, and then adjust it...
And that should be when it's tight enough to be quiet when warm, and loose enough that it doesn't bog down the engine on a cold start... It will at this point undoubtedly make noise at start, but quiet down once everything is warm and all tolerances are like they should when running...
The span in between those limits aren't that tight, there is a little wiggle room, and that's normal... So you might not get it 100% spot on, but trust me, neither does the stock OEM one's...
05-07-2011 | 08:14 AM
#8
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From: thorold ontario
thanks for the info buddy. i wasnt gonna set them finger tight and leave them, i just wanted to start from scratch and then adjust from there. ill do the cold start today and see if i get some noise. i was able to get the rear adjusted to where it started to bog the motor a little and i backed it off, but the front i kept turning and it wouldnt bog it down. on average from finger tight how much tighter should it go before bogging the motor? i know that everyone finger tightens a little differently and you cant just say 2.25 turns past finger tight. but after finger tight would it be starting to put enough tension on it to start bogging it or would it need a bit more turning?
05-07-2011 | 08:15 AM
#9
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well the front is in a summabitch of a spot to get to. ill leave it at that.
i ended up trying the method where you tighten them until the motor starts to bog and then you back it off a bit. the back one i must have given a turn and a half to or better and then it finally started to bog the motor a little, the front one seemed fine where it was. i was going to use the back off till it ticks method but i thought it might cause more harm than good especially since i have a little tick in there already after doing the clutch, so i wanted to make sure it wasnt backed off to the point where it would cause damage. i tried the hand tighten method but, and ill be honest, i was too lazy to lift the tank and remove the air box to do the front. so instead i just shoved my hands in there, burnt them a little, and in the end won the battle. well it still runs so hows that for winning.
question though, what happens if i over tighten them? and what rpm are your bikes idling at? i let mine get to just around operating temp but at 900 or so rpm it runs for a bit and dies, seems happy at 1100-1200 rpm. but my carbs need a re sync as i had them off not too long ago.
i ended up trying the method where you tighten them until the motor starts to bog and then you back it off a bit. the back one i must have given a turn and a half to or better and then it finally started to bog the motor a little, the front one seemed fine where it was. i was going to use the back off till it ticks method but i thought it might cause more harm than good especially since i have a little tick in there already after doing the clutch, so i wanted to make sure it wasnt backed off to the point where it would cause damage. i tried the hand tighten method but, and ill be honest, i was too lazy to lift the tank and remove the air box to do the front. so instead i just shoved my hands in there, burnt them a little, and in the end won the battle. well it still runs so hows that for winning.
question though, what happens if i over tighten them? and what rpm are your bikes idling at? i let mine get to just around operating temp but at 900 or so rpm it runs for a bit and dies, seems happy at 1100-1200 rpm. but my carbs need a re sync as i had them off not too long ago.
You are putting tension on the cams, pulling them against the bearing area. If it causes oil film failure you can scar the cam bearing surfaces. At the least you are wearing out the sliders prematurely due to excess drag.
The way I recommend to tension adjusters to the riders in my instructions. With a cold engine finger tighten them in initially, then while rotating the engine by hand continue to try to tighten the adjuster bolt. When it is tight, back it out about one flat on the nut or about 1/8 turn. That extra 1/8-1/4 turn is to allow for thermal expansion of the engine, the cylinder and other parts will grow in size as much as several thousandths or more so there needs to be some slight chain slack to compensate for it. My bikes will tick ever so lightly when cold, quieting down as they warm up. The purpose is to NOT have any tension on the chains, but to take out all slack or play. If you actually tighten them up beyond hand tight they are too tight.
If a rider wants to fine tune to be positive - which I do on my KLX, but not on the 550 because it is too hard to get hands in there when hot - there is a method of dynamic adjustment. Sounds fancy, but it just means you adjust slack out with the engine warmed up and running. While the engine is idling, if you don't hear ticking already, back out the adjuster bolt till you hear ticking. Then adjust in very slowly until the ticking is gone. Lock the locknut down and you should be good. You will find it is basically finger tight. Personally, knowing what I've learned, I'd rather be a very tiny bit to the loose side than tight. Kind of like with drive chains (but obviously they leave a whole lot more play due to the swing arm movement).
On the Eliminators and KLX250s we found there actually is a tapping that can be felt, the cam chain play slapping the tensioner slider, and the slider tapping the adjuster bolt. I didn't notice that on my 650 before, because I'd hold a wrench on it lightly - no gloves and too hot for finger tips. I did notice it on an Eliminator in which I installed an adjuster while at Mid Ohio last year at the Vintage Days. That tapping went away pretty much simultaneously with the noise. So we have guys adjusting both by feel and by ear. A mechanic's stethoscope or a long handle screwdriver (handle against ear) with the tip held on the engine at the tensioner will let you hear any ticking noise quite easily. I have two valves .001 out of tolerance (not worth pulling the cams to reshim) that I can pick out using a stethoscope. Stethoscopes are around $10 on ebay. This will really let you know if it is right.
No way do you ever tightne them down until it pulls down the idle - that's binding up the cam drive.
I hope this helps a bit in the scheme of things.
Last edited by klx678; 05-07-2011 at 08:29 AM.
05-07-2011 | 08:21 AM
#10
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I just read posts and can tell you 99% of the time finger tightening is totally sufficient. We find any tightening beyond that is simply putting undue tension on the cam drive.
I've got over 30,000 miles on the KLX with only 4 adjustments needed, starting out with a new cam chain, with the last one so long ago i forget when it was done. I have 8000 miles on the cold set 550, listened to it with a mechanic's stethoscope because I was a bit concerned about the cold set, but found it totally silent and still hasn't needed adjustment, but the cam chain was seated in on it.
One last comment, I'd trust finger tightening over the guess work of working the range from when the chain quiets down and the engine starts to bog. Again it is about getting slack out, not putting pressure on the drive. The only reason the factory has that weak spring in there is to do what you are doing when you finger tighten the bolt - push in a little, but not too much. Problem is the stock ones fail.
Oh, and I have about 250 or so tensioners out there with no issues based on what I've told you. Since most of the sales end up through forums, I'm very much in touch with a lot of the riders. Those are a loose version of my instructions - finger tight and fine tune when hot if desired. Even if some wimp did the finger tightening the difference between them and the strongest would be measured in inch/ounces and either is far better than a tensioner that allows up to a quarter inch or more of play, at least in the Kawasakis.
I've got over 30,000 miles on the KLX with only 4 adjustments needed, starting out with a new cam chain, with the last one so long ago i forget when it was done. I have 8000 miles on the cold set 550, listened to it with a mechanic's stethoscope because I was a bit concerned about the cold set, but found it totally silent and still hasn't needed adjustment, but the cam chain was seated in on it.
One last comment, I'd trust finger tightening over the guess work of working the range from when the chain quiets down and the engine starts to bog. Again it is about getting slack out, not putting pressure on the drive. The only reason the factory has that weak spring in there is to do what you are doing when you finger tighten the bolt - push in a little, but not too much. Problem is the stock ones fail.
Oh, and I have about 250 or so tensioners out there with no issues based on what I've told you. Since most of the sales end up through forums, I'm very much in touch with a lot of the riders. Those are a loose version of my instructions - finger tight and fine tune when hot if desired. Even if some wimp did the finger tightening the difference between them and the strongest would be measured in inch/ounces and either is far better than a tensioner that allows up to a quarter inch or more of play, at least in the Kawasakis.
Last edited by klx678; 05-07-2011 at 08:27 AM.
05-07-2011 | 08:26 AM
#11
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Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
You are putting tension on the cams, pulling them against the bearing area. If it causes oil film failure you can scar the cam bearing surfaces. At the least you are wearing out the sliders prematurely due to excess drag.
The way I recommend to tension adjusters to the riders in my instructions. With a cold engine finger tighten them in initially, then while rotating the engine by hand continue to try to tighten the adjuster bolt. When it is tight, back it out about one flat on the nut or about 1/8 turn. That extra 1/8-1/4 turn is to allow for thermal expansion of the engine, the cylinder and other parts will grow in size as much as several thousandths or more so there needs to be some slight chain slack to compensate for it. My bikes will tick ever so lightly when cold, quieting down as they warm up. The purpose is to NOT have any tension on the chains, but to take out all slack or play. If you actually tighten them up beyond hand tight they are too tight.
If a rider wants to fine tune to be positive - which I do on my KLX, but not on the 550 because it is too hard to get hands in there when hot - there is a method of dynamic adjustment. Sounds fancy, but it just means you adjust slack out with the engine warmed up and running. While the engine is idling, if you don't hear ticking already, back out the adjuster bolt till you hear ticking. Then adjust in very slowly until the ticking is gone. Lock the locknut down and you should be good. Personally, knowing what I've learned, I'd rather be a very tiny bit to the loose side than tight. Kind of like with drive chains (but obviously they leave a whole lot more play due to the swing arm movement).
On the Eliminators and KLX250s we found there actually is a tapping that can be felt, the cam chain play slapping the tensioner slider, and the slider tapping the adjuster bolt. I didn't notice that on my 650 before, because I'd hold a wrench on it lightly - no gloves and too hot for finger tips. I did notice it on an Eliminator in which I installed an adjuster while at Mid Ohio last year at the Vintage Days. That tapping went away pretty much simultaneously with the noise. So we have guys adjusting both by feel and by ear. A mechanic's stethoscope or a long handle screwdriver (handle against ear) with the tip held on the engine at the tensioner will let you hear any ticking noise quite easily. I have two valves .001 out of tolerance (not worth pulling the cams to reshim) that I can pick out using a stethoscope. Stethoscopes are around $10 on ebay. This will really let you know if it is right.
No way do you ever tightne them down until it pulls down the idle - that's binding up the cam drive.
I hope this helps a bit in the scheme of things.
The way I recommend to tension adjusters to the riders in my instructions. With a cold engine finger tighten them in initially, then while rotating the engine by hand continue to try to tighten the adjuster bolt. When it is tight, back it out about one flat on the nut or about 1/8 turn. That extra 1/8-1/4 turn is to allow for thermal expansion of the engine, the cylinder and other parts will grow in size as much as several thousandths or more so there needs to be some slight chain slack to compensate for it. My bikes will tick ever so lightly when cold, quieting down as they warm up. The purpose is to NOT have any tension on the chains, but to take out all slack or play. If you actually tighten them up beyond hand tight they are too tight.
If a rider wants to fine tune to be positive - which I do on my KLX, but not on the 550 because it is too hard to get hands in there when hot - there is a method of dynamic adjustment. Sounds fancy, but it just means you adjust slack out with the engine warmed up and running. While the engine is idling, if you don't hear ticking already, back out the adjuster bolt till you hear ticking. Then adjust in very slowly until the ticking is gone. Lock the locknut down and you should be good. Personally, knowing what I've learned, I'd rather be a very tiny bit to the loose side than tight. Kind of like with drive chains (but obviously they leave a whole lot more play due to the swing arm movement).
On the Eliminators and KLX250s we found there actually is a tapping that can be felt, the cam chain play slapping the tensioner slider, and the slider tapping the adjuster bolt. I didn't notice that on my 650 before, because I'd hold a wrench on it lightly - no gloves and too hot for finger tips. I did notice it on an Eliminator in which I installed an adjuster while at Mid Ohio last year at the Vintage Days. That tapping went away pretty much simultaneously with the noise. So we have guys adjusting both by feel and by ear. A mechanic's stethoscope or a long handle screwdriver (handle against ear) with the tip held on the engine at the tensioner will let you hear any ticking noise quite easily. I have two valves .001 out of tolerance (not worth pulling the cams to reshim) that I can pick out using a stethoscope. Stethoscopes are around $10 on ebay. This will really let you know if it is right.
No way do you ever tightne them down until it pulls down the idle - that's binding up the cam drive.
I hope this helps a bit in the scheme of things.
A small tip for someone that doesn't own a stethoscope, taking a normal screwdriver and putting the blade on the CCT bolt, is a good, simple way of listening to the CCT and filtering the big lumpy V-twin out of the equation...
05-07-2011 | 08:47 AM
#12
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All good info... And we are shooting for the same point, but with varying degrees of accuracy... I agree completely, setting them at cold is good enough on almost all bikes... But it's not hard to adjust them at operating temp... Just painfull... Lol...
A small tip for someone that doesn't own a stethoscope, taking a normal screwdriver and putting the blade on the CCT bolt, is a good, simple way of listening to the CCT and filtering the big lumpy V-twin out of the equation...
A small tip for someone that doesn't own a stethoscope, taking a normal screwdriver and putting the blade on the CCT bolt, is a good, simple way of listening to the CCT and filtering the big lumpy V-twin out of the equation...
Yeah, Nomex gloves painful. I did that one at Mid Ohio with no gloves. It was like watching someone walk on hot coals. A pair of heat resistant mechanicls gloves would be nice, but even a folded over rag would work wonders. I used a wrench very gingerly on the KLX and it was never over about 1/8 turn to take out the ticking when adjusting for light ticking as the chains (the 650 actually has two) seated in.
The Kaws with the center cylinder adjuster is hard to get to. So I took a chance with mine. The stethoscope was well worth the low bucks to get it. Amazing what you hear. I still wish it was on the outside edge like the new stuff.
Last edited by klx678; 05-07-2011 at 08:50 AM.
05-07-2011 | 09:30 AM
#13
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From: thorold ontario
excellent info thanks alot for taking the time to put it up guys. i just fired the bike up, its cold, theres no tick. im gonna yank the tank later on and adjust them cold again. i think ive got them too tight.
as for finger tight, as tight as i possibly can with my fingers or snug or what?
id rather not have too much tension on the chain, id like to refrain from having to re wire my track bike and use that as my daily because i blew up my hawk
as for finger tight, as tight as i possibly can with my fingers or snug or what?
id rather not have too much tension on the chain, id like to refrain from having to re wire my track bike and use that as my daily because i blew up my hawk
05-07-2011 | 06:58 PM
#14
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From: thorold ontario
adjusted them cold today. the back was pretty much spot on but i backed it off a bit and then hand tightened it again and gave it about 1/4 turn. the front was a little loose, felt good until i yanked the air box and adjusted it there, an extra turn or so was still in it. but it was one of those things i couldnt get a good grip on through the frame. oh well. its done now. turns out i can yank the tank and air box in about 2 minutes. ive had it off a few times, haha.
thanks for the help and info guys
thanks for the help and info guys
05-11-2011 | 12:20 PM
#15
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thanks,
--fred
05-11-2011 | 12:34 PM
#16
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From: Phoenix, AZ
05-11-2011 | 01:52 PM
#17
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that is the most seductive looking \'per\ i've ever seen.
hmmm. : "a pome fruit of a tree (genus Pyrus, especially P. communis) of the rose family that typically has a pale green or brownish skin, a firm juicy flesh, and an oblong shape in which a broad base end tapers upward to a narrow stem end." i never quite thought of it that way.
hmmm. : "a pome fruit of a tree (genus Pyrus, especially P. communis) of the rose family that typically has a pale green or brownish skin, a firm juicy flesh, and an oblong shape in which a broad base end tapers upward to a narrow stem end." i never quite thought of it that way.
05-12-2011 | 07:52 PM
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adjusted them cold today. the back was pretty much spot on but i backed it off a bit and then hand tightened it again and gave it about 1/4 turn. the front was a little loose, felt good until i yanked the air box and adjusted it there, an extra turn or so was still in it. but it was one of those things i couldnt get a good grip on through the frame. oh well. its done now. turns out i can yank the tank and air box in about 2 minutes. ive had it off a few times, haha.
thanks for the help and info guys
thanks for the help and info guys
Very simple - in hot adjustment back out the adjuster bolt until there is slight ticking, then adjust it in until the ticking goes away. The only tough part here is the fact that it is hot on the hands. Tick gone - adjustment right!
Now here's a pair I can go for...
05-12-2011 | 09:11 PM
#26
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05-13-2011 | 05:36 AM
#29
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From: thorold ontario
haha you guys are fucked, is it still winter where you live? lol
i havent gone back in there to re adjust anything yet. been busy the last week. but im gonna have to just to be safe. i know when i started to adjust one of them and listening for the ticking sound it felt like i was turning it alot waiting for the ticking to happen. any chance of it skipping a tooth if i back it off too far ?
i havent gone back in there to re adjust anything yet. been busy the last week. but im gonna have to just to be safe. i know when i started to adjust one of them and listening for the ticking sound it felt like i was turning it alot waiting for the ticking to happen. any chance of it skipping a tooth if i back it off too far ?
05-13-2011 | 07:25 AM
#30
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haha you guys are fucked, is it still winter where you live? lol
i havent gone back in there to re adjust anything yet. been busy the last week. but im gonna have to just to be safe. i know when i started to adjust one of them and listening for the ticking sound it felt like i was turning it alot waiting for the ticking to happen. any chance of it skipping a tooth if i back it off too far ?
i havent gone back in there to re adjust anything yet. been busy the last week. but im gonna have to just to be safe. i know when i started to adjust one of them and listening for the ticking sound it felt like i was turning it alot waiting for the ticking to happen. any chance of it skipping a tooth if i back it off too far ?
