Riding Techniques
05-25-2006, 07:08 AM
#31
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I know you were interested in riding 2 up. I can say for certain this bike handles like a dream in decent twisties with a passenger. My buddies said I was riding too fast or outside my limits being two up but what do they know. you can feel whats not right and what is. Adding the extra 115 lbs kept the rear tire planted and when you come out of the turns and crank on it the rear tire just hooks and goes without effort. anyone in the northeast want a decent ride try SR 82 from pennsylvania to wilmington DE
05-25-2006, 09:43 AM
#32
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Great thread.
What everyone says about cold or new tires....caution is required.
Peg weighting/countersteering/target fixation too.
Read 'The Pace' by Nick Ienatsch.
And above all..........Obey the Laws of Physics.
Crashing sucks.
Geoff in Almonte
99VTR
What everyone says about cold or new tires....caution is required.
Peg weighting/countersteering/target fixation too.
Read 'The Pace' by Nick Ienatsch.
And above all..........Obey the Laws of Physics.
Crashing sucks.
Geoff in Almonte
99VTR
05-25-2006, 10:00 AM
#34
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Nick Ienatsch wrote another book: Sport Bike riding Techniques.
I recomend this book and if you want him to teach you personally. Go to Freddie Spencer's High Performance School. I have gone the past four years and will continue. It's that good. They teach how to ride safely on the track and off. The best money I have ever spent.
I recomend this book and if you want him to teach you personally. Go to Freddie Spencer's High Performance School. I have gone the past four years and will continue. It's that good. They teach how to ride safely on the track and off. The best money I have ever spent.
05-25-2006, 10:22 PM
#35
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As an MSF instructor I should support the Basic Ridercourse curriculum. You'll learn a LOT about slower speed parking lot maneuvers and good riding habits on the street.
It's been said several times before already, but I'll reinforce it again:
GO DO A COUPLE TRACK DAYS! You'll learn more about you and the bike on those track days than you will a year riding around town. Word of advice on this as well is to not skimp on good race tires when you get on the track. Nothing kills your confidence more than wondering if you're street tires or shagged out race take-offs are going to get you around the corner. Spoon on some supersoft/soft (f/r) Supercorsas and have at it. There's an extra margin of safety by doing this as well.
Follow both of these up with a several day trip to the mountains (i.e. Deal's Gap/Cherahola Skyway). There is such a variety of turns up there that you can apply the confidence you gain from track days, the good street habits you apply in MSF, and GOOD LINES that you learned from both.
I guarantee that if you take a two week vacation this summer, do the MSF, followed by two back-to-back track days, followed by 4 days in the mountains you will get back home and not want to ride because you'll find it boring!! Happens to me every time I do a track day or take a good riding trip. Everything local just seems so lame.
It's been said several times before already, but I'll reinforce it again:
GO DO A COUPLE TRACK DAYS! You'll learn more about you and the bike on those track days than you will a year riding around town. Word of advice on this as well is to not skimp on good race tires when you get on the track. Nothing kills your confidence more than wondering if you're street tires or shagged out race take-offs are going to get you around the corner. Spoon on some supersoft/soft (f/r) Supercorsas and have at it. There's an extra margin of safety by doing this as well.
Follow both of these up with a several day trip to the mountains (i.e. Deal's Gap/Cherahola Skyway). There is such a variety of turns up there that you can apply the confidence you gain from track days, the good street habits you apply in MSF, and GOOD LINES that you learned from both.
I guarantee that if you take a two week vacation this summer, do the MSF, followed by two back-to-back track days, followed by 4 days in the mountains you will get back home and not want to ride because you'll find it boring!! Happens to me every time I do a track day or take a good riding trip. Everything local just seems so lame.
After a weekend at the track it makes me almost want to give up street riding all together.
05-26-2006, 02:18 PM
#37
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Loco - Keith Code states that putting weight on the OUTSIDE peg is the way to go fast. I can tell you that it's true from personal experience. Not that I'm fast, I just know it works better. Only the pro riders know how to do this well though.
05-26-2006, 09:31 PM
#38
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Pure Bullshit! The only thing weighting the outside peg will do is get you to make the bike stand LESS upright through a turn. If you're hanging off correctly and have good body position to begin with then this is a nil point anyway. Weighting the INSIDE peg is best. It moves your center of gravity off the bike, and allows the bike to be more upright through the turn.
You can do this in the room you're in right now. Lean to the right while on your left leg. Now lean to the right on your right leg. Which allows you to lean further???
You can do this in the room you're in right now. Lean to the right while on your left leg. Now lean to the right on your right leg. Which allows you to lean further???
05-27-2006, 09:09 AM
#39
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Re: your passenger, having a good passenger who you're comfortable with and who is comfortable with you can make you significantly faster in the twisties, because you have more weight available with which to control the bike.
The keys to this are trust (in both directions!), your ability as a rider to clearly communicate what you're wanting through your body motions, and her ability to read those intentions and do them without having to think about it.
The Talk I give passengers before I take them out for a spin includes things like: Don't put your feet on the ground until I tell you it's okay -- that means, keep them on the pegs at stoplights and the like unless you ask me first. Hold on to the bike with your thighs to stay on the bike and comfortable, but hold on to me to know when and how much to lean. If I lean, lean exactly with me. If you need to look sideways or something in order to not pick your own line, do it.
I had a girlfriend who often rode with me who was amazing at this. With her on the back I could generally get through the corners noticably faster. And I managed at least once to get both wheels to slide while leaned over (gravel) and recovered with no problems, because she did exactly what I did even though it felt weird. After the ride, I told her she'd done it exactly right and she said, "Oh, is that what a slide feels like? I thought it felt really strange."
Admittedly, this was on a big, stable bike ('84 VF1000F) so the extra weight was particularly useful, but the Superhawk seems to me to also lean towards stable steering rather than falling into corners.
As far as riding fast goes, other posters have said this, but it's worth emphasizing. Smooth is fast. Smooth corner entry, smooth corner exit. It'll feel better and you'll go faster. If you need to, slow down some and work on the smooth entry and exit and then slowly bump up the speed while keeping the line good and the motions smooth.
And track days are a great way to practice it. I need to do another one sometime soon, six+ years of not riding really makes you rusty... So, yeah, I recommend against going six+ years without riding, no matter how much experience you have. Besides, doing that'll leave you a little insane, I think.
The keys to this are trust (in both directions!), your ability as a rider to clearly communicate what you're wanting through your body motions, and her ability to read those intentions and do them without having to think about it.
The Talk I give passengers before I take them out for a spin includes things like: Don't put your feet on the ground until I tell you it's okay -- that means, keep them on the pegs at stoplights and the like unless you ask me first. Hold on to the bike with your thighs to stay on the bike and comfortable, but hold on to me to know when and how much to lean. If I lean, lean exactly with me. If you need to look sideways or something in order to not pick your own line, do it.
I had a girlfriend who often rode with me who was amazing at this. With her on the back I could generally get through the corners noticably faster. And I managed at least once to get both wheels to slide while leaned over (gravel) and recovered with no problems, because she did exactly what I did even though it felt weird. After the ride, I told her she'd done it exactly right and she said, "Oh, is that what a slide feels like? I thought it felt really strange."
Admittedly, this was on a big, stable bike ('84 VF1000F) so the extra weight was particularly useful, but the Superhawk seems to me to also lean towards stable steering rather than falling into corners.
As far as riding fast goes, other posters have said this, but it's worth emphasizing. Smooth is fast. Smooth corner entry, smooth corner exit. It'll feel better and you'll go faster. If you need to, slow down some and work on the smooth entry and exit and then slowly bump up the speed while keeping the line good and the motions smooth.
And track days are a great way to practice it. I need to do another one sometime soon, six+ years of not riding really makes you rusty... So, yeah, I recommend against going six+ years without riding, no matter how much experience you have. Besides, doing that'll leave you a little insane, I think.
05-28-2006, 11:47 PM
#40
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Just a couple comments..
Regarding the inside/outside peg, I offer this insight... I used to ride around a Hawk GT, and got pretty darn good at hanging off the thing. I decided that I wanted to be seated lower, thus making it easier for me to get my butt off the seat. Well, a friend of mine got on my case for taking the seat apart and taking material out because he said, and everyone else agreed, that it is best to have my weight forward and HIGH. So, I'm thinking that while it may feel faster to put more weight on the inner peg, it may actually produce better results, in terms of leverage over the bike, to put more weight on the outer peg. Maybe 5-10% (just threw those numbers out there) of riders better use their skills while putting more weight on the inner peg, but I have a feeling they are an exception to the rule. Keith Code knows his stuff.
Regarding smooth is fast, yes, yes and yes. I'm still getting used to the handling of my superchicken, and I find myself breaking awfully late into turns. It is amazing how much different the tracking of the bike is when I'm on the throttle. When on the throttle, the bike takes turns more sharply for me. I don't know if it's more because the *** end is stepping out because I'm on the gas, or I'm more confident because I know I'm supposed to be on the gas throughout the turn, but the bike does what it is supposed to when I'm doing what I'm supposed to. In short, set up for your turns early. It will increase smoothness and speed.
Regarding the inside/outside peg, I offer this insight... I used to ride around a Hawk GT, and got pretty darn good at hanging off the thing. I decided that I wanted to be seated lower, thus making it easier for me to get my butt off the seat. Well, a friend of mine got on my case for taking the seat apart and taking material out because he said, and everyone else agreed, that it is best to have my weight forward and HIGH. So, I'm thinking that while it may feel faster to put more weight on the inner peg, it may actually produce better results, in terms of leverage over the bike, to put more weight on the outer peg. Maybe 5-10% (just threw those numbers out there) of riders better use their skills while putting more weight on the inner peg, but I have a feeling they are an exception to the rule. Keith Code knows his stuff.
Regarding smooth is fast, yes, yes and yes. I'm still getting used to the handling of my superchicken, and I find myself breaking awfully late into turns. It is amazing how much different the tracking of the bike is when I'm on the throttle. When on the throttle, the bike takes turns more sharply for me. I don't know if it's more because the *** end is stepping out because I'm on the gas, or I'm more confident because I know I'm supposed to be on the gas throughout the turn, but the bike does what it is supposed to when I'm doing what I'm supposed to. In short, set up for your turns early. It will increase smoothness and speed.
05-29-2006, 07:09 PM
#41
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I think that the "weighting" of a peg that Code speaks of forces you to lock you leg into the tank and to some degree you will actually help push the bike "up" away from the turn because the peg is used as a lever of sorts, with the tires being the fulcrum. This is HUGELY dependant on the bike (seat to peg to tank distance), the rider's anatomy (inseam), and the rider's current body position. If you feel like you are going to fall off the bike, or if you have problems getting off the bike, then maybe weighting the outside peg is the answer to good form in hanging off. Once you get the muscle memory to get into this position without you having to conciously think about it, then it's a moot point.
One other thing to think about: Newton's third law. "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". If you weight the outside peg, where is the equal and opposite force? I'm not a physicist, but I'm pretty sure what results is that you move the center of gravity to the outside of the bike/turn, unless of course you move some other part of your body to counteract it. What does this do to your lean angle?
So, to finalize my position on this, I think weighting the outside peg is a TOOL to get your body into proper positioning for fast, aggressive riding.
Do I do this? No. Have I tried? Yes, and it didn't do much for me because I already have good body positioning.
{edit} BTW, Pridmore seems to know his stuff as well, and he's a "body steerer". So it just goes to show that both ways works for different folks. Weighting the outside peg seems to be the standard for advanced cornering in dirt, but there seems to be a mix of opinions for street.
One other thing to think about: Newton's third law. "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". If you weight the outside peg, where is the equal and opposite force? I'm not a physicist, but I'm pretty sure what results is that you move the center of gravity to the outside of the bike/turn, unless of course you move some other part of your body to counteract it. What does this do to your lean angle?
So, to finalize my position on this, I think weighting the outside peg is a TOOL to get your body into proper positioning for fast, aggressive riding.
Do I do this? No. Have I tried? Yes, and it didn't do much for me because I already have good body positioning.
{edit} BTW, Pridmore seems to know his stuff as well, and he's a "body steerer". So it just goes to show that both ways works for different folks. Weighting the outside peg seems to be the standard for advanced cornering in dirt, but there seems to be a mix of opinions for street.
05-31-2006, 11:25 AM
#42
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Best book I read is Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ignesich (sp?). I have the Keith Code book as well, but didn't get as much out of it. What I really need is a trackschool.
(Yelling to wife) Honey can I go to motorcycle school?
(Wife) Sure, when my kitchen and the kid's rooms are done
(Yelling to wife) Honey can I go to motorcycle school?
(Wife) Sure, when my kitchen and the kid's rooms are done
05-31-2006, 11:25 AM
#43
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Best book I read is Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ignesich (sp?). I have the Keith Code book as well, but didn't get as much out of it. What I really need is a trackschool.
(Yelling to wife) Honey can I go to motorcycle school?
(Wife) Sure, when my kitchen and the kid's rooms are done
(Yelling to wife) Honey can I go to motorcycle school?
(Wife) Sure, when my kitchen and the kid's rooms are done
02-05-2007, 04:57 PM
#47
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Other forums (with other self proclaimed experts) address the peg weighting issue at length as well. From what I have read, the consensus is that weighting the outside peg is the proper way of doing things, and consequently I think of riding a motorcycle like snow skiing. For those of you that ski (and are reasonably skilled at it) will understand what I am saying. As you carve left, your sholders (perpendicular to your line, and relatively level with the ground) remain alligned above your hips as your body leans over to the left, weighting the outside leg. Your hands are in front of you, and you have a forward, "driving" attitude with your elbows and knees bent to suspend the bulk of your weight. It makes sense to me because of the basic athletic position. Feet shoulder width apart (plus a little sometimes), knees bent, etc. When you swing anything, or throw anything, you drive off the back foot toward the direction you are trying to go. This seems to be parallel to ridng. I also grew up riding bicycles, and not motorcycles; where your weight is always on the outside pedal in turns. If you were to try to turn a bike with your weight on the inside pedal, you would drag pedal and crash, so it is different. It just seems more natural to weight the outside peg; but that doesn't necessarily make it correct. I think more importantly, you want to put as much weight on your pegs rather than on your seat. Use your legs as added suspension, and you will learn to ride more smoothly.
02-05-2007, 08:40 PM
#48
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A shock can do a heck of a lot, but I'm definitely a supporter of turning ones' legs into an additional suspension component. It can make all the difference in the world.
02-06-2007, 07:37 AM
#49
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When I first started riding dirt bikes, I found it proposterous that one is supposed to ride standing. It didn't feel natural to me, because at that time I was used to having my *** firmly planted on my various street going motorcycles' cushy seats. They were sporty bikes, but I had not done any high performance riding. So when I learned on a dirtbike to ride on my feet, and to let the motorcycle "flow" beneath me, I learned to let go of control, and let the bike ride smoothly. When I learned that road racers keep their weight out of the saddle a lot, it made sense; but it seemed like a lot of work. So I have been practicing on my spirited rides in the mountains. It can make you sore fast, but it will allow the bike and rider to make changes and adjustments to turns, bumps, and minor instabilities. That's my 2 cents.
02-06-2007, 01:32 PM
#50
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There is a long history of excellent road race riders having been trials riders - from long before KR going to Europe.
In the trials competition world, we have always put weight on the peg to the outside of a slope, for maximum grip. You might think that it would work the other way, but in fact by doing it this way you have the most chance of applying traction at the least oblique angle.
The same applies when leaned off to the inside of a corner on a roadrace bike. You still need to maintain maximum adhesion. It's just that the machine is on a lean, rather than the land it is on.
This stuff is not new.
PS I have roadraced professionally, still roadrace, and do a lot of street riding. I have never found it desirable to hang off a bike for cornering on the street - too many unpredictables, and you lose stability - but seldom am passed by anyone, either (and never on a corner, that I can recall). If you still have "chicken lines" on your tires and nothing on your machine other than the hero buttons on your footrests hits the ground whilst cornering, you have to ask yourself WTF you are doing trying to hang off.
In the trials competition world, we have always put weight on the peg to the outside of a slope, for maximum grip. You might think that it would work the other way, but in fact by doing it this way you have the most chance of applying traction at the least oblique angle.
The same applies when leaned off to the inside of a corner on a roadrace bike. You still need to maintain maximum adhesion. It's just that the machine is on a lean, rather than the land it is on.
This stuff is not new.
PS I have roadraced professionally, still roadrace, and do a lot of street riding. I have never found it desirable to hang off a bike for cornering on the street - too many unpredictables, and you lose stability - but seldom am passed by anyone, either (and never on a corner, that I can recall). If you still have "chicken lines" on your tires and nothing on your machine other than the hero buttons on your footrests hits the ground whilst cornering, you have to ask yourself WTF you are doing trying to hang off.
02-06-2007, 02:35 PM
#51
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I'm no roadracer, but I thought the technique that Code is preaching involves not only weighting the outside peg but also counter-steering with your hands simultaneously. By counter-steering into the turn (which directs the bike into the corner), and weighting the outside peg (which would stand the bike up in the other direction), one creates his "power" position, which, in his opinion, yields the most stability mid-corner. It theoretically yields the ability to steer the bike while leaned over, or help you save the bike if something unexpected happens, by applying more or less counter-steering effort or outside foot pressure depending on the situation. I'm assuming this means more counter steering on the way in and more outside peg weighting on the way out, but the transition is smooth.
Having done Pridmore's school, I think he teaches more of a standard technique: inside peg weighting going in, and then to the outside as you exit, staying light and relaxed with your hands on the bars.
Having said all that, I'm definitely more comfortable with Pridmore's teachings at this point, but will think about what Code says and try it sometime. In my recent crash I could see how maybe what Code says could've helped, so I am keeping my mind open.
Having done Pridmore's school, I think he teaches more of a standard technique: inside peg weighting going in, and then to the outside as you exit, staying light and relaxed with your hands on the bars.
Having said all that, I'm definitely more comfortable with Pridmore's teachings at this point, but will think about what Code says and try it sometime. In my recent crash I could see how maybe what Code says could've helped, so I am keeping my mind open.
02-06-2007, 05:54 PM
#52
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Well, we countersteer anyway, realise it or not. It's so much second nature from pushbike riding etc that we just do not realise it until riding some real bastard of a bike (or one with a steering damper done up way too tight).
Another interesting empirical observation, from the world of pushbike racing: right-handed people tend to turn bikes better to the left, left-handed to the right.
Another interesting empirical observation, from the world of pushbike racing: right-handed people tend to turn bikes better to the left, left-handed to the right.
02-07-2007, 05:39 PM
#55
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Makes sense, kind of.... I mean you don't really push it. You push the pedals I guess. But then you could call it a pedal bike, or a biped cycle, or just a Bi-cycle...but pushbike works for me. Speaking of which, I almost crashed my pushbike yesterday in a bad way by trying to weight the inside peg on a turn. Weight on inside peg lead to extra low clearance in the general area of my toes (which rolled under the pedal) and dragged my sandle. This unsettled the suspension (or lack there of on my Schwin cruiser) and almost tossed me as my rear tire jumped a bit immediately prior to launching over the soft curb up onto my front lawn. I used my dirt biking skills to ride it out, and the end result was succesful. But I nearly chowed the gutter in front of my mother in law and wife, who were following me in the car. Nothing like dragging hard parts of the Beach Cruiser while squidin in sandals on the public streets!
02-09-2007, 05:20 PM
#57
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Back in the day I invested the money to ride down to Road Atlanta and go through the Kieth Code ridin school. I can only tell you that was the best money I have ever spent. 200 miles in a day on the track and one set of stock tires later I had a new respect for my bike (then a CBR900rr) its true the bike can handle almost anything but can you? I learned to trust my bike not my fear. Just a thought.
Too funny fundgh!
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