Oops at the Track!
11-23-2009 | 02:17 PM
#1
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From: Concord, NC
Oops at the Track!
The good news: The track day was good. I went to CMP in Kershaw, SC. The weather was nice. Not too hot, but not cold either. Good for riding. I started in Novice but bumped up to Intermediate in the afternoon.
The bad news: Just after having my suspension customized for me, I proceeded to go out on the track and laid the bike down!!!! The Honda. It was a slow left hander and I didn’t feel like I was pushing too much, but the back end slipped out and down I went. A few bent things on the bike, but overall, it survived just fine. I was able to ride it off the track, but the shift lever was scrubbed off, so it wasn’t ridable. I survived just fine. No bumps or bruises at all. The leathers were terrific. They got scraped a bit, but no holes or tears.
The wreck was in the next to last session in the afternoon, so I just rode the TT for the last session. It really was a good “lessons learned” weekend though, even with the wreck.
First, I learned that I’m now riding beyond the standard street tires…either that or after a few track days, the tires that I was running were not good enough. They still had plenty of tread on them, so I don’t THINK that was the case. I was running a Michelin Power Pilot 2CT on the front of the Triumph and a Shinko 005 on the back. I could feel how much the rear wheel was slipping on me the entire day. The 005 is a mid level sport-tour tire, so I need something better than that on the track. The Honda has Michelin Power Pilots front and rear. The back gave out on me. I don’t THINK that I wound up the motor and spun the tire to cause it coming out of the turn, but that’s a possibility. I’m thinking that it just cut loose. Two different instructors warned me that when the PPs go, they go fast. Funny thing was I didn't feel one slip or slide on the Honda all day prior to the get-off.
The one thing I really took away is how much I’ve improved on my cornering at track speeds….or at least how much more confident and comfortable I am with it. I think I’ve reached a point of riding on the track beyond the average street tire and I need to be more particular about what I run on them. The other positive from the weekend was that I moved up to Intermediate. I was really worried about the pace and being “run over” by the other riders, but I found that I was quite comfortable with the pace. There were a few guys that were passing me, but there were a couple that I passed too, so I was probably running a 3 or 4 out of 10 compared to others. I do need better tires though.
It was really interesting to go down. Early in the day…first session in fact…there was a guy 2 bikes in front of me that went down. I watched as he flailed around almost like he was trying to get up or something. After I went down, I understood better what he was going through. Your mind is telling you to try to “fix” things in the middle of the wreck, and I had to intentionally tell myself to just relax and ride out the slide before reacting. I started to struggle a bit, but then realized it and just laid back and slid. It worked terrific, the leathers held up perfectly, and I didn’t have a mark or a bruise on me anyplace.
The bad news: Just after having my suspension customized for me, I proceeded to go out on the track and laid the bike down!!!! The Honda. It was a slow left hander and I didn’t feel like I was pushing too much, but the back end slipped out and down I went. A few bent things on the bike, but overall, it survived just fine. I was able to ride it off the track, but the shift lever was scrubbed off, so it wasn’t ridable. I survived just fine. No bumps or bruises at all. The leathers were terrific. They got scraped a bit, but no holes or tears.
The wreck was in the next to last session in the afternoon, so I just rode the TT for the last session. It really was a good “lessons learned” weekend though, even with the wreck.
First, I learned that I’m now riding beyond the standard street tires…either that or after a few track days, the tires that I was running were not good enough. They still had plenty of tread on them, so I don’t THINK that was the case. I was running a Michelin Power Pilot 2CT on the front of the Triumph and a Shinko 005 on the back. I could feel how much the rear wheel was slipping on me the entire day. The 005 is a mid level sport-tour tire, so I need something better than that on the track. The Honda has Michelin Power Pilots front and rear. The back gave out on me. I don’t THINK that I wound up the motor and spun the tire to cause it coming out of the turn, but that’s a possibility. I’m thinking that it just cut loose. Two different instructors warned me that when the PPs go, they go fast. Funny thing was I didn't feel one slip or slide on the Honda all day prior to the get-off.
The one thing I really took away is how much I’ve improved on my cornering at track speeds….or at least how much more confident and comfortable I am with it. I think I’ve reached a point of riding on the track beyond the average street tire and I need to be more particular about what I run on them. The other positive from the weekend was that I moved up to Intermediate. I was really worried about the pace and being “run over” by the other riders, but I found that I was quite comfortable with the pace. There were a few guys that were passing me, but there were a couple that I passed too, so I was probably running a 3 or 4 out of 10 compared to others. I do need better tires though.
It was really interesting to go down. Early in the day…first session in fact…there was a guy 2 bikes in front of me that went down. I watched as he flailed around almost like he was trying to get up or something. After I went down, I understood better what he was going through. Your mind is telling you to try to “fix” things in the middle of the wreck, and I had to intentionally tell myself to just relax and ride out the slide before reacting. I started to struggle a bit, but then realized it and just laid back and slid. It worked terrific, the leathers held up perfectly, and I didn’t have a mark or a bruise on me anyplace.
11-23-2009 | 03:06 PM
#2
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sorry about the get-off.
street tires are exactly that... street tires: to be run at street speeds ( speed limit ). find a good set of take-offs or bite the bullet and buy a new set of DOT race tires.
i've had this chat many times about track / street tires. there is a world of difference. street tires feel very numb to me - ZERO feedback ! street tires
are a lot better today in terms of grip but if you can't 'feel' whats it's doing you have no idea when it's going to step out.
tim
street tires are exactly that... street tires: to be run at street speeds ( speed limit ). find a good set of take-offs or bite the bullet and buy a new set of DOT race tires.
i've had this chat many times about track / street tires. there is a world of difference. street tires feel very numb to me - ZERO feedback ! street tires
are a lot better today in terms of grip but if you can't 'feel' whats it's doing you have no idea when it's going to step out.
tim
11-23-2009 | 03:09 PM
#3
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I was at CMP on the other yellow VTR. I was in novice and stayed in novice and had one hellofa good time. At 63 I was probably one of the older riders there and I know my limits but my limits are getting higher with each track day (this was my third). My first was at Road America in July on my 05 Buell XB9SX--way under powered for a big track like RA but it did handle very well and had great brakes.
After RA I sold the Buell as I'd wanted a VTR and I found one in time for a trackday at Blackhawk Farms in Sept. BF has much in common with CMP. My son lives in Kings Mountain, NC and talked me into driving down from Wisconsin (just south of Milwaukee) for a final 2009 trackday. I have to say that I really liked CMP. It suited me much better than BF. See, I have an artificial right leg and I ride "duck footed" according to the control riders and I take no offense at the term because I do ride duckfooted. I wore about 1/2" off the tip of my right boot but did no damage to my $19,000 leg.
I've read many reports on modification necessary to make the VTR a good trackday bike. Well, at my skill level absolutely no changes from stock are necessary. I run stock everything with the suspension set for my weight and use Michelin Power Pilot 2CT. The VTR never did anything scary but I ride somewhat conservatively. Still I was faster than about 1/3 of the novice's at this trackday and the VTR has all the acceleration I could want. When Buell closed its operations I was offered a brand new 2009 Buell 1125R for $6,250 by a Buell dealer where my former "best man" works. Now, I really like Buell and if I were 5 year younger I'd probably bought it. I have no regrets on passing on the Buell as the VTR is all I could ever want.
Ride safe and have fun--NO BETTER WAY than a TRACKDAY.
After RA I sold the Buell as I'd wanted a VTR and I found one in time for a trackday at Blackhawk Farms in Sept. BF has much in common with CMP. My son lives in Kings Mountain, NC and talked me into driving down from Wisconsin (just south of Milwaukee) for a final 2009 trackday. I have to say that I really liked CMP. It suited me much better than BF. See, I have an artificial right leg and I ride "duck footed" according to the control riders and I take no offense at the term because I do ride duckfooted. I wore about 1/2" off the tip of my right boot but did no damage to my $19,000 leg.
I've read many reports on modification necessary to make the VTR a good trackday bike. Well, at my skill level absolutely no changes from stock are necessary. I run stock everything with the suspension set for my weight and use Michelin Power Pilot 2CT. The VTR never did anything scary but I ride somewhat conservatively. Still I was faster than about 1/3 of the novice's at this trackday and the VTR has all the acceleration I could want. When Buell closed its operations I was offered a brand new 2009 Buell 1125R for $6,250 by a Buell dealer where my former "best man" works. Now, I really like Buell and if I were 5 year younger I'd probably bought it. I have no regrets on passing on the Buell as the VTR is all I could ever want.
Ride safe and have fun--NO BETTER WAY than a TRACKDAY.
11-23-2009 | 04:04 PM
#4
Out of my mind, back in 5
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That's the only downside i have found on the PP's... Once they get hot enough, they just let go... No real warning with lsip and slide first... It's grip, grip, grip, sandbox...
trinc... I beg to differ... You get plenty of feedback with the PP, even more so with the PP 2CT... It's just that when it gets above it's specified temp the transition from grip to loss of grip is instant... Keep a termometer at hand and check temps during the day... If you run to hot, let them cool of... Or take it easy...
But yeah, get some take off's for next track day NCDave...
trinc... I beg to differ... You get plenty of feedback with the PP, even more so with the PP 2CT... It's just that when it gets above it's specified temp the transition from grip to loss of grip is instant... Keep a termometer at hand and check temps during the day... If you run to hot, let them cool of... Or take it easy...
But yeah, get some take off's for next track day NCDave...
11-23-2009 | 04:41 PM
#6
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Dave,
I remembered passing you thinking "cool" a yellow Hawk... I owned a yellow 99 so I still have a soft spot for yellow ones. As others have stated get a pair of track tires, CMP is tough on tires but very grippy.
I remembered passing you thinking "cool" a yellow Hawk... I owned a yellow 99 so I still have a soft spot for yellow ones. As others have stated get a pair of track tires, CMP is tough on tires but very grippy.
11-23-2009 | 05:19 PM
#7
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That's the only downside i have found on the PP's... Once they get hot enough, they just let go... No real warning with lsip and slide first... It's grip, grip, grip, sandbox...
trinc... I beg to differ... You get plenty of feedback with the PP, even more so with the PP 2CT... It's just that when it gets above it's specified temp the transition from grip to loss of grip is instant... Keep a termometer at hand and check temps during the day... If you run to hot, let them cool of... Or take it easy...
But yeah, get some take off's for next track day NCDave...
trinc... I beg to differ... You get plenty of feedback with the PP, even more so with the PP 2CT... It's just that when it gets above it's specified temp the transition from grip to loss of grip is instant... Keep a termometer at hand and check temps during the day... If you run to hot, let them cool of... Or take it easy...
But yeah, get some take off's for next track day NCDave...
differ all you want... but i'm the one that is correct. they offer ZERO feedback. granted i'm usually on corsa drangons or the new n-techs
so going to a street tire was a bit of a shock... i spooned on PP's for the winter and after 300 miles i sold them ( cheap ).
what i say about tires is get the stickies because you never know. the magazines all talk about how good street tires are & they are probably right. in the right hands they may be ok for the track but if you put a novice on a bike with the rear stepping out or a two wheel slide more times then not they see pavement... with a DOT race tire, you really need to try to get them to break loose.
part of the feedback is sensing when they're going off...
tim
11-23-2009 | 09:04 PM
#9
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From: Concord, NC
Thanks for all the input and discussion though guys. I'm not really that experienced with track riding, and it all helps the learning process.
11-24-2009 | 09:10 AM
#10
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tim
11-24-2009 | 10:13 AM
#11
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I'm with Tim.
It may not have been the first day, but definitely by the second day on a track, I was rolling gumballs off the edges of my race takeoffs. I never ran street tires on the track, as I was warned against it.
I very rarely get to the edge of the tire on the street. On the track, you will get there, and go for more. I could drag my kickstand on the pavement and it was like riding rails. Better to have too much tire grip than not enough. Especially given the tendency for street tires to lose grip suddenly.
It may not have been the first day, but definitely by the second day on a track, I was rolling gumballs off the edges of my race takeoffs. I never ran street tires on the track, as I was warned against it.
I very rarely get to the edge of the tire on the street. On the track, you will get there, and go for more. I could drag my kickstand on the pavement and it was like riding rails. Better to have too much tire grip than not enough. Especially given the tendency for street tires to lose grip suddenly.
11-24-2009 | 10:32 AM
#12
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I got to take a look at some pics from the professional photographer there. I think my form had a part in it. I was not off the bike enough through the turn in question at an eariler point when he captured a picture of me. if that is the case, then I might have been pushing the street tires too far for my own good. Even though they gave me no indication of a problem prior, several of the instructors told me that my Power Pilots have a tendancy of letting go quickly with no warning. If I went into the turn like that, then it's certainly rider error (like there was any doubt anyway...lol). My body was off slightly, but I wasn't leading with my head, and my lean angle was pretty extreme.
11-24-2009 | 03:54 PM
#13
Out of my mind, back in 5
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First off... If I'm going to the track, I'm NOT going there with PP's... They are for street use...
But for a novice at the track they are more than ample, and in no way responsible for any accidents... The reasoning is simple... Even with the bike setup correctly, the correct tire pressure and all that, a novice will not work the tires to where they get twitchy, he will have put himself in the gravel from other reasons long before that...
This applies even if you are reasonably fast on the streets, as you aren't supposed to go knee down, ***** out there, that a novice will have to learn that on the track first...
Once you get to the point that you will keep consistant lines, decent body position and have the bike at a good angle, then you work the tires hard enough that they will be the reason you are in the gravel... Not because you are pushig them the wrong way, just consistanly building heat...
On a good day I'm almost there... So I use track tires on track, road tires on road... But even if I'm far from a pro, I'm not a novice either... (trinc, I have the highest respect for your knowledge and I'm willing to bet you have substantially more track time than me... But that also means your perspective on what to use on track might be just a little bit different than what a "novice" needs...)
So again, for a novice on a first track day... PP's are fine... They will not put you in the gravel anymore than a race take off will... If you end up in the gravel on your first trackday, I'll bet my bike that it was user error, not the tires fault... But then again, I have more faith in the bike's capability than the average squid hanging on the back of it...
11-25-2009 | 09:41 AM
#14
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I would tend to agree with that. I was running a Power Pilot 2CT on the front of my Triumph, and a Shinko 005 on the back for my first two track days this year. both tires were fine for what I was doing. I never had a slip from either of them once. It was July at Road Atlanta and was 99 degrees that day, and even then the tires didn't overheat and slip. That's more of a function of my slower pace than the tires handling things though.
By my third track day at Barber, the 005 was sliding all over the place. it would slip out in turns, and would also slip on hard exit throttle too. the "good" part about it was that I could feel it and it didn't totally let go on me.
I rode the SH for part of the day at Barber as well, and the PPs did far better than the setup on the Triumph did. I wasn't "fast" but did a respectable novice time of 1:53.
At CMP this past weekend, the Triumph was still doing it's slipping thing, but the SH was holding fast until it went out on me.
Now, having said that....sorry....this may get a bit long for a single post....the professional pictures are finally posted up from the weekend. The photographer got some shots of me from the back end going through that same turn from eariler in the day. I definitely had the bike leaned, and it appears to my inexperienced eye that I was at the edge of what street tires can handle. However, at the same time, my form was not good enough...again, to my inexperienced eye. I was off the bike a bit, and down over the tank, but I don't think I was off the bike enough to help through the turn as I should have been. I think I was too focused on being fast instead of proper form in the turns. Rookie mistake! Especially since I had just moved to Intermediate and was worried that I kept up with the fastser pace.
So, I think that's what really happened to me...at least as best as I can determine. You can bet at my next track day I'll be riding on some good tires, and also be working on consistancy of form!!!!!!!
Most riders have NO real idea of how much there is to learn about going fast on a track!
By my third track day at Barber, the 005 was sliding all over the place. it would slip out in turns, and would also slip on hard exit throttle too. the "good" part about it was that I could feel it and it didn't totally let go on me.
I rode the SH for part of the day at Barber as well, and the PPs did far better than the setup on the Triumph did. I wasn't "fast" but did a respectable novice time of 1:53.
At CMP this past weekend, the Triumph was still doing it's slipping thing, but the SH was holding fast until it went out on me.
Now, having said that....sorry....this may get a bit long for a single post....the professional pictures are finally posted up from the weekend. The photographer got some shots of me from the back end going through that same turn from eariler in the day. I definitely had the bike leaned, and it appears to my inexperienced eye that I was at the edge of what street tires can handle. However, at the same time, my form was not good enough...again, to my inexperienced eye. I was off the bike a bit, and down over the tank, but I don't think I was off the bike enough to help through the turn as I should have been. I think I was too focused on being fast instead of proper form in the turns. Rookie mistake! Especially since I had just moved to Intermediate and was worried that I kept up with the fastser pace.
So, I think that's what really happened to me...at least as best as I can determine. You can bet at my next track day I'll be riding on some good tires, and also be working on consistancy of form!!!!!!!
Most riders have NO real idea of how much there is to learn about going fast on a track!
11-25-2009 | 09:44 AM
#15
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BUT.............
After pondering this point a bit, there's absolutely no problem with going out and getting some better tires if you are going to the track for the first time. If you can afford it, it's good "insurance". Do you HAVE to have them as a novice.....no.....you can go have a lot of fun with some good street tires. BUT...why not take every opportunity to provide a safety cushion to your fun.
After pondering this point a bit, there's absolutely no problem with going out and getting some better tires if you are going to the track for the first time. If you can afford it, it's good "insurance". Do you HAVE to have them as a novice.....no.....you can go have a lot of fun with some good street tires. BUT...why not take every opportunity to provide a safety cushion to your fun.
11-25-2009 | 10:42 AM
#16
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I wouldn't worry too much about getting off the bike, unless you are running into clearance problems - dragging the exhaust header on the right and kickstand on the left. If your tires let go before you start dragging parts, you have a tire problem.
More improtant to work on being consistent and making smooth transitions. Also important not to just grab a handful of throttle while leaned over. I'm probably too ginger with the throttle coming off of corners, because I can't afford to highside. I'm not too worried about being the fast guy either.
True what you say about learning to go fast on the track. You can't and shouldn't get close to track speed on the street.
Get some race tires. You will never regret it.
More improtant to work on being consistent and making smooth transitions. Also important not to just grab a handful of throttle while leaned over. I'm probably too ginger with the throttle coming off of corners, because I can't afford to highside. I'm not too worried about being the fast guy either.
True what you say about learning to go fast on the track. You can't and shouldn't get close to track speed on the street.
Get some race tires. You will never regret it.
11-25-2009 | 11:20 AM
#17
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my headers didn't drag until I put the bike on it's side. Nor the kickstand, for that matter. My toes seem to be my feeler gauge. I rear-set the pegs, so I only barely touched my toe twice this weekend. Much better than at Barber where I wore through the toe protector.
I'm leaning toward Michelin Power Ones. Good choice?
I'm leaning toward Michelin Power Ones. Good choice?
11-25-2009 | 12:00 PM
#18
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Not gonna get into a debate, just putting in my 2cents. I've gone to 3 trackdays, all with PP 2ct's. one day was 100 degrees. track temp was 130. the pp never stepped out on me once. then the next year, I went to the same track on the same set of tires. slightly cooler day. still not one issue. and while I was in novice, I was definitely at the top of novice. I love the 2ct's. sure slick would be better, but whatever.
11-25-2009 | 12:11 PM
#19
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Bump up to Intermediate. You'll enjoy it. Less road barriers to get around.
Hey, I had shinko 005s on my Triumph TT600 at CMP in the spring and Atlanta this summer and was very pleased with their performance. They are just a mid-grade sport-tour tire, but held on the back of the TT just fine. This fall something changed with them though. Either my riding is more aggressive, or the tires have given out. I've been sliding them in the corners, and spinning a little bit on exit under acceleration. I wasn't so surprised with that though since I don't think they are as good a sport tire as the PPs.
I was running the PPs on the hawk because that's what was on it when I bought it in October. I'll probably have the Power One's on it in the spring for next season. I don't know that it's a necessity, but for peace of mind, I'll get them. I'd prefer not to have another slide in the books....although it was kinda fun!
Hey, I had shinko 005s on my Triumph TT600 at CMP in the spring and Atlanta this summer and was very pleased with their performance. They are just a mid-grade sport-tour tire, but held on the back of the TT just fine. This fall something changed with them though. Either my riding is more aggressive, or the tires have given out. I've been sliding them in the corners, and spinning a little bit on exit under acceleration. I wasn't so surprised with that though since I don't think they are as good a sport tire as the PPs.
I was running the PPs on the hawk because that's what was on it when I bought it in October. I'll probably have the Power One's on it in the spring for next season. I don't know that it's a necessity, but for peace of mind, I'll get them. I'd prefer not to have another slide in the books....although it was kinda fun!
11-26-2009 | 10:01 AM
#20
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I run middle of the pack in Advanced class with Pilot Powers (not 2CT). I do run warmers and proper track pressures though. I've not had the bike or tires do anything strange yet with these tires. I love 'em. I run them on the 1000RR too, and dragged a footpeg without feeler earlier this spring.
earlier this spring.
11-27-2009 | 08:16 PM
#22
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I too have been "let down" by the PP's. Instant fall (snapping the throttle may have something to do with it though) with no warning. 2nd lap, 2nd session, first of two days. Bike was fine luckily.
Most tires seem to be happy starting around 28 cold.
Most tires seem to be happy starting around 28 cold.
11-27-2009 | 10:30 PM
#25
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I run middle of the pack in Advanced class with Pilot Powers (not 2CT). I do run warmers and proper track pressures though. I've not had the bike or tires do anything strange yet with these tires. I love 'em. I run them on the 1000RR too, and dragged a footpeg without feeler earlier this spring.
earlier this spring.
tim
damn, even those pesky new 600's blow by me... and those damn liter bikes have 30 mph on me going into the first brake zone ....
11-27-2009 | 11:02 PM
#26
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If those pesky new 600's didn't pass you, it would have to be due to overweight rider or deficit skills because they have similar HP and weigh significantly less.
11-28-2009 | 05:50 PM
#27
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11-28-2009 | 07:52 PM
#28
Out of my mind, back in 5
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I usually run front of the pack in intermediate... And I'm no brilliant track rider... Or play around in the back of the pack in advanced... Those guys carry more cornerspeed than the intermediate guys... Those I just sail past in corners and then wait out the straights with them wizzing by and do it again... The VTR is an awsome track weapon if setup right...
11-28-2009 | 07:58 PM
#30
Out of my mind, back in 5
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Or it could be too stiff, flexing the wrong way? Is it a new and fresh tire or has it been doing highway miles?
