HID, Xenon and the confusion...
10-22-2008 | 12:31 PM
#1
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HID, Xenon and the confusion...
Ok, I'm by no means an expert... I do have a reasonable grasp on it tough as I did a lot of research before starting my retrofit...
HID = Xenon... It's simple and still not... HID and Xenon isn't the same and there are many confusing misconception advertised on the net... there are "Xenon" halogen bulbs... The name "Xenon" is the gas... The type of bulb is still HID...
Xenon = Not HID... A HID bulb needs an ignitor, if it doesn't it's obviously not a HID bulb...
HID = Xenon... It's simple and still not... HID and Xenon isn't the same and there are many confusing misconception advertised on the net... there are "Xenon" halogen bulbs... The name "Xenon" is the gas... The type of bulb is still HID...
Xenon = Not HID... A HID bulb needs an ignitor, if it doesn't it's obviously not a HID bulb...
What is HID ?
HID, High Intensity Discharge, (also known as Xenon) refers to lighting technology that relies on an electrical charge to ignite xenon gas in a sealed bulb, similar to the lightning phenomenon in the sky. HID lighting does not have a filament but instead creates light by igniting an electrical discharge between two electrodes in an air tight tiny quartz capsule filled with xenon gas. HID lighting are also called Xenon lighting, referring to the gas inside the bulb.
HID vs. Halogen Technologies
HID lighting improves durability by 10 times as road vibrations can cause damage to halogen filament, but there is nothing to break inside HID bulb. These light sources also produce a blue-white light that is safer because it is closer to natural daylight.
The color temperature is more than 5000K compared to 2300K for halogen. The light output from a 35W HID Xenon lamp is 300% more light than a 55W halogen bulb. The HID Xenon system will also consume much less power from your vehicles electrical system and generate much less heat during operation.
HID Advantages 
Color Temperature
Color Temperature is a measurement in Degrees Kelvin (K) that indicates the hue of light source. There is a misconception that color temperature is a rating of the brightness of the HID bulb. The truth is that the higher the color temperature, the less light output from the HID bulb.
However, all HID light is much brighter than Halogen, even if it is a 35W 12000K HID bulb, the light output still maintain well over 2700lm; which is still 300% brighter than 55W Halogen with 700lm.
HID, High Intensity Discharge, (also known as Xenon) refers to lighting technology that relies on an electrical charge to ignite xenon gas in a sealed bulb, similar to the lightning phenomenon in the sky. HID lighting does not have a filament but instead creates light by igniting an electrical discharge between two electrodes in an air tight tiny quartz capsule filled with xenon gas. HID lighting are also called Xenon lighting, referring to the gas inside the bulb.HID vs. Halogen Technologies
HID lighting improves durability by 10 times as road vibrations can cause damage to halogen filament, but there is nothing to break inside HID bulb. These light sources also produce a blue-white light that is safer because it is closer to natural daylight.
The color temperature is more than 5000K compared to 2300K for halogen. The light output from a 35W HID Xenon lamp is 300% more light than a 55W halogen bulb. The HID Xenon system will also consume much less power from your vehicles electrical system and generate much less heat during operation.
- 3X Brigther & more consistent illumination of the road, and increases comfort & reduces fatigue when driving at night
- Produces blue-white light that is safer because it is closer to natural daylight
- 10X Longer Lasting. No need to replace for life of the vehicle
- 35% less power consumption, thus generate much less heat during operation
Color Temperature
Color Temperature is a measurement in Degrees Kelvin (K) that indicates the hue of light source. There is a misconception that color temperature is a rating of the brightness of the HID bulb. The truth is that the higher the color temperature, the less light output from the HID bulb.
Last edited by Tweety; 10-24-2008 at 07:06 PM.
10-22-2008 | 12:40 PM
#2
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Then there is the confusing discussion of a HID projector vs a HID bulb in the stock reflector...
The reason a HID bulb in a stock reflector generaly is a bad idea is that the light source has to be in the exact correct spot for the reflector to give a correct beam pattern without glare or other ill effects...
Usually a cheap non-branded HID H4 replacement bulb isn't that spot on... Some are good enough, but usualy they are pretty far of... This causes glare and could potentially blind an oncoming driver, the reason being that a HID setup produces a lot more light than a stock halogen setup...
A HID projector is a HID bulb inside a reflector & lense arrangement that gives a correct beam pattern for that bulb, as all parts are designed to work together... A projector can be fitted inside the outer shell of a headlamp with very small effects on the beam pattern from the added plastic shell...
The reason a HID bulb in a stock reflector generaly is a bad idea is that the light source has to be in the exact correct spot for the reflector to give a correct beam pattern without glare or other ill effects...
Usually a cheap non-branded HID H4 replacement bulb isn't that spot on... Some are good enough, but usualy they are pretty far of... This causes glare and could potentially blind an oncoming driver, the reason being that a HID setup produces a lot more light than a stock halogen setup...
A HID projector is a HID bulb inside a reflector & lense arrangement that gives a correct beam pattern for that bulb, as all parts are designed to work together... A projector can be fitted inside the outer shell of a headlamp with very small effects on the beam pattern from the added plastic shell...
10-22-2008 | 12:56 PM
#3
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Bi-Xenon or highbeam/lowbeam HID... The use of Xenon as a name here is probably because to make sense you have to use a full name with HID, Bi-HID sounds stupid...
A bi-Xenon projector has a shield that limits the pattern on lowbeam, this moves up and down with a solenoid... This means the bulb is a single bulb, in the same place in the reflector for both... And since the design is made for this it gives a correct beam pattern in both highbeam and lowbeam... Int his configuration the HID bulb and ignitor is always on, no hot-restart...
A H4 bulb is also a single bulb in the same spot for hi/lo but uses dual filaments, on lit for lowbeam, another for highbeam... As the geometry remains the same the relector is meant for this and also works in both highbeam and lowbeam...
Since a HID bulb contains no filaments a hi/lo HID replacement bulb need either two bulbs in one, or a movable bulb... ie there are two small bulbs placed close together... This means the bulbs end up at different places in the stock reflector... The same applies to a movable bulb... Hence the problem with glare...
A H4 bulb is an accepted industry standard... a H4 bulb has exact dimensions and placement of filaments to adhere to... usualy a replacement HID doesn't follow any standards what so ever... Also the cheaper they are, the larger the risk of spotty quality control...
There is one instance where a good quality HID replacement bulb works rather good though...
If you put a single HID bulb in place of the H4 bulb as a lowbeam only you get a reasonably good beam pattern, with minimal glare... You also get a lot more light than with a stock H4 bulb... The drawback being that you have no highbeam...
But as the light output is a lot wider, and even if it is infact no longer than the ideal beam of a H4 bulb, in practice no H4 reaches a good output at the distance that a HID lowbeam bulb does... This compensates a good bit of the loss of the highbeam...
A bi-Xenon projector has a shield that limits the pattern on lowbeam, this moves up and down with a solenoid... This means the bulb is a single bulb, in the same place in the reflector for both... And since the design is made for this it gives a correct beam pattern in both highbeam and lowbeam... Int his configuration the HID bulb and ignitor is always on, no hot-restart...
A H4 bulb is also a single bulb in the same spot for hi/lo but uses dual filaments, on lit for lowbeam, another for highbeam... As the geometry remains the same the relector is meant for this and also works in both highbeam and lowbeam...
Since a HID bulb contains no filaments a hi/lo HID replacement bulb need either two bulbs in one, or a movable bulb... ie there are two small bulbs placed close together... This means the bulbs end up at different places in the stock reflector... The same applies to a movable bulb... Hence the problem with glare...
A H4 bulb is an accepted industry standard... a H4 bulb has exact dimensions and placement of filaments to adhere to... usualy a replacement HID doesn't follow any standards what so ever... Also the cheaper they are, the larger the risk of spotty quality control...
There is one instance where a good quality HID replacement bulb works rather good though...
If you put a single HID bulb in place of the H4 bulb as a lowbeam only you get a reasonably good beam pattern, with minimal glare... You also get a lot more light than with a stock H4 bulb... The drawback being that you have no highbeam...
But as the light output is a lot wider, and even if it is infact no longer than the ideal beam of a H4 bulb, in practice no H4 reaches a good output at the distance that a HID lowbeam bulb does... This compensates a good bit of the loss of the highbeam...
Last edited by Tweety; 10-25-2008 at 10:55 AM.
10-22-2008 | 01:02 PM
#4
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Color temperature...
See the chart in the first post... A bulb at around 4300K-4500K is the stock bulb in all OEM HID's... this is as close to normal daylight as possible...
If you increase the temperature you actually diminsh the amount of produced light (lumens), but make the light whiter at first then blueish, then purple in color...
This looks good but decreases performance... Usually 6000K is a reasonable compromise... "Stylish" without loosing to much performance...
See the chart in the first post... A bulb at around 4300K-4500K is the stock bulb in all OEM HID's... this is as close to normal daylight as possible...
If you increase the temperature you actually diminsh the amount of produced light (lumens), but make the light whiter at first then blueish, then purple in color...
This looks good but decreases performance... Usually 6000K is a reasonable compromise... "Stylish" without loosing to much performance...
10-22-2008 | 01:11 PM
#6
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Downsides of the HID technology...
The main downside with HID's are the initial power draw at startup...
A HID bulb is usualy rated as being "35W" as opposed to 60/55W H4 halogens... And while it is true that they need less power during operation they do need large amounts of energy to ignite the plasma in the HID bulb...
This means that the stock wiring is in many cars and bikes in risk of being damaged from an HID setup... I would recommend always using a dedicated wire from the battery and a relay to power any HID, replacement bulb or projector alike...
Another drawback is that the HID bulb has a small amount of warm-up time, the light takes a few seconds to reach full brightness... That is another reason for not having separate bulbs for hi/lo...
Also the ignitor isn't that fond of being restarted unnecessarily... It's advisable to keep the HID off until the engine has been fully turned on and not have it lit while cranking the engine... The reason being that this will cause multiple restarts at the same time as the HID tries to ignite draining power from the starter...
The main downside with HID's are the initial power draw at startup...
A HID bulb is usualy rated as being "35W" as opposed to 60/55W H4 halogens... And while it is true that they need less power during operation they do need large amounts of energy to ignite the plasma in the HID bulb...
This means that the stock wiring is in many cars and bikes in risk of being damaged from an HID setup... I would recommend always using a dedicated wire from the battery and a relay to power any HID, replacement bulb or projector alike...
Another drawback is that the HID bulb has a small amount of warm-up time, the light takes a few seconds to reach full brightness... That is another reason for not having separate bulbs for hi/lo...
Also the ignitor isn't that fond of being restarted unnecessarily... It's advisable to keep the HID off until the engine has been fully turned on and not have it lit while cranking the engine... The reason being that this will cause multiple restarts at the same time as the HID tries to ignite draining power from the starter...
10-22-2008 | 01:24 PM
#7
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The above being facts and information are to my best knowledge correct and unbiased, feel free to correct me is you find any factual errors...
The following is my personal take on it...
A HID replacement bulb as a lowbeam only is a reasonable upgrade, but still should have a relay to be a good idea... It's probably more cost effective to use a good quality H4 halogen bulb with a relay...
A BI-Xenon replacement bulb is mostly a waste of money... In most cases they give you a incorrect beam pattern in both highbeam and lowbeam... in some cases one of the two is near correct... At no time is any of the two fully correct... no matter what the seller or manufacturer are saying...
Also depending on you location, doing this might be illegal as the beam pattern and glare might actually cause danger... This is entirely dependant on the stringency of the laws in you location... In EU it's most definetly illegal in any shape or form...
A HID projector is a bit more money, and a bit more work, but it's worth it... So far I have only tested mine of the bike, but the difference to a stock H4 bulb is monumental... A projector is a legal gray area as it actually gives a correct beam pattern while not stock fitted to the vehicle... Again depending on local laws...
Out of curiosity I tested my HID bulb in the stock reflector (just poked it in there, resonably correct placed...) I could see the beam pattern resembling the stock bulb (once it was positioned close to stock) but I could also see the glare as small patches of light outside the beam pattern... Not pretty...
The following is my personal take on it...
A HID replacement bulb as a lowbeam only is a reasonable upgrade, but still should have a relay to be a good idea... It's probably more cost effective to use a good quality H4 halogen bulb with a relay...
A BI-Xenon replacement bulb is mostly a waste of money... In most cases they give you a incorrect beam pattern in both highbeam and lowbeam... in some cases one of the two is near correct... At no time is any of the two fully correct... no matter what the seller or manufacturer are saying...
Also depending on you location, doing this might be illegal as the beam pattern and glare might actually cause danger... This is entirely dependant on the stringency of the laws in you location... In EU it's most definetly illegal in any shape or form...
A HID projector is a bit more money, and a bit more work, but it's worth it... So far I have only tested mine of the bike, but the difference to a stock H4 bulb is monumental... A projector is a legal gray area as it actually gives a correct beam pattern while not stock fitted to the vehicle... Again depending on local laws...
Out of curiosity I tested my HID bulb in the stock reflector (just poked it in there, resonably correct placed...) I could see the beam pattern resembling the stock bulb (once it was positioned close to stock) but I could also see the glare as small patches of light outside the beam pattern... Not pretty...
Last edited by Tweety; 10-22-2008 at 01:38 PM.
10-22-2008 | 01:28 PM
#8
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Thanks... And thanks for butting in two posts early... 
Nah... just kidding...
All is good...
Hope this helps somebody... This was because of the for sale thread going a bit of topic... handkaudio's thread wasn't the place for it, so I did this instead...
And as I said I'm no expert... Fell free to chime in with suggestions on improvement... And If I'm way of somewhere please tell me...
Nah... just kidding...
All is good... Hope this helps somebody... This was because of the for sale thread going a bit of topic... handkaudio's thread wasn't the place for it, so I did this instead...
And as I said I'm no expert... Fell free to chime in with suggestions on improvement... And If I'm way of somewhere please tell me...
10-22-2008 | 02:23 PM
#9
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Thanks Tweety, you confirmed what I thought I knew. I have OE dual HID projectors for Hi & Low in my Mazda 3 GTS, which amazingly for such an inexpensive cage actually have an down adjustment for when you have the rear seat and trunk fully loaded so you don't shoot skyward when the back end drops.
Years ago, I powered my headlight via a separate heavier gage loom controlled by dual relays (similar to the easternbeaver kit), and run a Slyvania SilverStar 50/60. There is also the H4 Philips +50 "Vision Plus" bulb and H4 Philips X-treme Power +80% bulbs. Then there is the Osram H4Nightbreaker which is supposed to be +90, and tested as the best of the bunch. I'll stick with these H4 bulbs for the time being, which along with my antique neon auxiliary license plate frame brake light and OE front TS moved and wired in the rear to also act as running lights keep my VR/R cooler (to which I added a heat sink-CPU fan and ducting).
Years ago, I powered my headlight via a separate heavier gage loom controlled by dual relays (similar to the easternbeaver kit), and run a Slyvania SilverStar 50/60. There is also the H4 Philips +50 "Vision Plus" bulb and H4 Philips X-treme Power +80% bulbs. Then there is the Osram H4Nightbreaker which is supposed to be +90, and tested as the best of the bunch. I'll stick with these H4 bulbs for the time being, which along with my antique neon auxiliary license plate frame brake light and OE front TS moved and wired in the rear to also act as running lights keep my VR/R cooler (to which I added a heat sink-CPU fan and ducting).
10-22-2008 | 02:49 PM
#10
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Thanks Tweety, you confirmed what I thought I knew. I have OE dual HID projectors for Hi & Low in my Mazda 3 GTS, which amazingly for such an inexpensive cage actually have an down adjustment for when you have the rear seat and trunk fully loaded so you don't shoot skyward when the back end drops.
Years ago, I powered my headlight via a separate heavier gage loom controlled by dual relays (similar to the easternbeaver kit), and run a Slyvania SilverStar 50/60. There is also the H4 Philips +50 "Vision Plus" bulb and H4 Philips X-treme Power +80% bulbs. Then there is the Osram H4Nightbreaker which is supposed to be +90, and tested as the best of the bunch. I'll stick with these H4 bulbs for the time being, which along with my antique neon auxiliary license plate frame brake light and OE front TS moved and wired in the rear to also act as running lights keep my VR/R cooler (to which I added a heat sink-CPU fan and ducting).
Years ago, I powered my headlight via a separate heavier gage loom controlled by dual relays (similar to the easternbeaver kit), and run a Slyvania SilverStar 50/60. There is also the H4 Philips +50 "Vision Plus" bulb and H4 Philips X-treme Power +80% bulbs. Then there is the Osram H4Nightbreaker which is supposed to be +90, and tested as the best of the bunch. I'll stick with these H4 bulbs for the time being, which along with my antique neon auxiliary license plate frame brake light and OE front TS moved and wired in the rear to also act as running lights keep my VR/R cooler (to which I added a heat sink-CPU fan and ducting).
But seeing Anto's and hak's retrofit pictures got me going...
Also a buddy bought a couple of replacement bulbs for his car and also for his bike, a VFR... (despite it being illegal here...) and kind of gave up getting it to work correctly with dual bulb H4 replacements in the bike altough in the car it "works"... Heavy glare, and crappy beam, but great improvement on stock...
He then handed the problem over to me... I tryid my best, but could only manage a lowbeam H4 with reasonable results on his bike... And that started me on the slippery slope of a retrofit on my own bike...
10-22-2008 | 03:16 PM
#11
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Well once agian great write up. I will probably ask you a few things as "I was told different" on some things, so I could be wrong. Which is ok as I have not studied up on anything here really. First off, As far as power draw on startup, I was told this is why it "warms" itself up, starts out dim and gets brighter, because of power draw, doesnt draw as much on a startup this way? Just what I heard once again. Also as far as glare. With the ones I have had installed in my bike, they are much brighter but have had people I know drive by me and in front of me and said they are not any brighter to them than any other cars. They say the SUV's and cars with projector HIDs are brighter than my bike. Just some of my experiences I guess. Sorry to add that, but let me know if I am wrong. I would like to know as much as possible on them since I use and sell them 
10-22-2008 | 03:46 PM
#12
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Hey, I welcome questions... I'm hoping to learn something from this as well...
The reason for the "warm-up" is that the bulb is making the salt (the "storage" state of the Xenon) into gas... this takes lots of energy and supposedly some time too, if this is prolonged it decreases bulb life, so probably there is a balance here... If the time span actually is to reduce power draw I'm not sure... As I said, no expert... just used to doing research...
The reason your lights isn't as bright as the cars with OEM HID's are because of the projectors focusing the light, all the light is in the exact right place, making it really bright...
In your's some of the light will be missing the target and that gives somewhat less brightness and more glare instead... probably more noticably in an oncoming vehicle... but with lowbeams only you actually have fairly small amounts of glare, the bulb is rather close to correct placement, only the reflector is much wider than the one in a projector giving less brightness as well...
Yeah, projector ones are bright, and if you look straight into them you will get blinded, but they won't blind you otherwise (generally atleast...)
I can say from experience that the ones in the VFR that I helped sort out does infact cause some annoyance from glare... it's aimed fairly low and still some drivers will flash highbeams at you... Not much but noticably...
The hi/lo dual bulbs that came with the kit though was really annoying... To the point where people would constantly flash at night even with them aimed "to low", so low in fact that the stock setup was a better choice...
Not really answears... But might clarify some things... I don't think your wrong in any way...
I'm hoping to learn something from this as well...The reason for the "warm-up" is that the bulb is making the salt (the "storage" state of the Xenon) into gas... this takes lots of energy and supposedly some time too, if this is prolonged it decreases bulb life, so probably there is a balance here... If the time span actually is to reduce power draw I'm not sure... As I said, no expert... just used to doing research...
The reason your lights isn't as bright as the cars with OEM HID's are because of the projectors focusing the light, all the light is in the exact right place, making it really bright...
In your's some of the light will be missing the target and that gives somewhat less brightness and more glare instead... probably more noticably in an oncoming vehicle... but with lowbeams only you actually have fairly small amounts of glare, the bulb is rather close to correct placement, only the reflector is much wider than the one in a projector giving less brightness as well...
Yeah, projector ones are bright, and if you look straight into them you will get blinded, but they won't blind you otherwise (generally atleast...)
I can say from experience that the ones in the VFR that I helped sort out does infact cause some annoyance from glare... it's aimed fairly low and still some drivers will flash highbeams at you... Not much but noticably...
The hi/lo dual bulbs that came with the kit though was really annoying... To the point where people would constantly flash at night even with them aimed "to low", so low in fact that the stock setup was a better choice...
Not really answears... But might clarify some things... I don't think your wrong in any way...
10-24-2008 | 05:38 PM
#14
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SuperSport
Joined: Jul 2008
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From: San Diego, CA
And just to confuse the issue, there are a million "xenon" bulbs on ebay that are not HID. They're just regular halogen incandescent bulbs with some xenon gas in them.
If it doesn't have a ballast, it's not HID.
If it doesn't have a ballast, it's not HID.
10-24-2008 | 08:09 PM
#16
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Well, I'm really no expert... give me a microprocessor and I'll turn it inside out... But my only knowledge of HID's comes from reading up for my project...
10-25-2008 | 06:35 AM
#18
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From: Winter Haven, Florida
Thanks for the informative post Tweety!!
I often consider adding high power driving lights and have considered using HID.
But,I am virtually never the only car on the road. This means going back and forth from low to high beams all the time.
Your write up demonstrates that is a bad thing. Ballasts will blow. Horror stories from guys like me who patch together a low cost system off of eBay, verify this.
What do you think of a lighting system that has an always on HID low beam and a switched Halogen type high beam pointed "way down the road" (with both bulbs on in high beam mode)??
Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
I often consider adding high power driving lights and have considered using HID.
But,I am virtually never the only car on the road. This means going back and forth from low to high beams all the time.
Your write up demonstrates that is a bad thing. Ballasts will blow. Horror stories from guys like me who patch together a low cost system off of eBay, verify this.
What do you think of a lighting system that has an always on HID low beam and a switched Halogen type high beam pointed "way down the road" (with both bulbs on in high beam mode)??
Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
Last edited by Tom Blum; 10-25-2008 at 06:37 AM. Reason: grammar and spelling
10-25-2008 | 10:52 AM
#19
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From: Skurup, Sweden
Thanks for the informative post Tweety!!
I often consider adding high power driving lights and have considered using HID.
But,I am virtually never the only car on the road. This means going back and forth from low to high beams all the time.
Your write up demonstrates that is a bad thing. Ballasts will blow. Horror stories from guys like me who patch together a low cost system off of eBay, verify this.
What do you think of a lighting system that has an always on HID low beam and a switched Halogen type high beam pointed "way down the road" (with both bulbs on in high beam mode)??
Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
I often consider adding high power driving lights and have considered using HID.
But,I am virtually never the only car on the road. This means going back and forth from low to high beams all the time.
Your write up demonstrates that is a bad thing. Ballasts will blow. Horror stories from guys like me who patch together a low cost system off of eBay, verify this.
What do you think of a lighting system that has an always on HID low beam and a switched Halogen type high beam pointed "way down the road" (with both bulbs on in high beam mode)??
Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
The projector that I'm using (and haknslash) is a Bi-Xenon, it has one HID lamp which is always on and just a shield moving between hi/low beam... this is done with a solenoid, the HID and ballast aren't affected...
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