So WTF has Obama done so far??
12-04-2010 | 08:39 AM
#31
Former Superchicken Owner
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,607
From: Ft. Worth, TX
Wyldrice-
You have free public education in WA state? I don't think so. Revenue for your school system is derived from property taxes and state sales tax therefore it is NOT free.
Socialized mail service? I'm not sure I would characterize it as "socialized". I think a more appropriate term would be monopoly.
Socialized military? In what respect? In terms of medical care a centralized medical command is a necessity since your local hospital isn't going to give wound care on the battlefield.
Taxpayer supported healthcare? In your city, county and state there are already programs that exist for low income and those unable to pay both locally and federally funded. What else do you want? In WA state you also have a state board of appeals for insurance that handles complaints for insurance compaies that do what you say they do. Since you "work in health care" (I am unsure in what capacity) you should be aware of these services that your patients could avail themselves of.
As typical of democrats, they talk around subjects while ignoring certain inconvenient truths. Their grasp of the subjects seems limited to what they are told without ever performing any real analysis except to "know" that SOMETHING must be done and it is obviously the other party's fault. If people actually thought about something longer than 30 seconds, formed an opinion based on fact from a variety of sources we would all be much better off than we are today.
Instead of characterizing the Republican party as the "party of No", it is time you and the rest of your democrat supporters realize that it wasn't the party saying no, it was the constituents who sent their representatives to Washington that told them to say no. The majority of the country DID NOT want socialized healthcare in spite of it being rammed down our throats. If it is a priority for this country to provide healthcare for the leeches in our society, then we can simply adjust our current programs instead of adding bazillions of dollars to our debt to take care of an estimated 15 million people.
You have free public education in WA state? I don't think so. Revenue for your school system is derived from property taxes and state sales tax therefore it is NOT free.
Socialized mail service? I'm not sure I would characterize it as "socialized". I think a more appropriate term would be monopoly.
Socialized military? In what respect? In terms of medical care a centralized medical command is a necessity since your local hospital isn't going to give wound care on the battlefield.
Taxpayer supported healthcare? In your city, county and state there are already programs that exist for low income and those unable to pay both locally and federally funded. What else do you want? In WA state you also have a state board of appeals for insurance that handles complaints for insurance compaies that do what you say they do. Since you "work in health care" (I am unsure in what capacity) you should be aware of these services that your patients could avail themselves of.
As typical of democrats, they talk around subjects while ignoring certain inconvenient truths. Their grasp of the subjects seems limited to what they are told without ever performing any real analysis except to "know" that SOMETHING must be done and it is obviously the other party's fault. If people actually thought about something longer than 30 seconds, formed an opinion based on fact from a variety of sources we would all be much better off than we are today.
Instead of characterizing the Republican party as the "party of No", it is time you and the rest of your democrat supporters realize that it wasn't the party saying no, it was the constituents who sent their representatives to Washington that told them to say no. The majority of the country DID NOT want socialized healthcare in spite of it being rammed down our throats. If it is a priority for this country to provide healthcare for the leeches in our society, then we can simply adjust our current programs instead of adding bazillions of dollars to our debt to take care of an estimated 15 million people.
12-04-2010 | 11:27 AM
#32
Senior Member
Superstock
Superstock
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 293
Wyldrice-
You have free public education in WA state? I don't think so. Revenue for your school system is derived from property taxes and state sales tax therefore it is NOT free.
Um...Where do I start with this? Lets try this. There's a lot of hypocrisy in the Republican message calling things "socialist" and "free". Sure schools are supported by taxes, but you aren't paying over and above that to pay for it and send your kids there. Thats what I mean by free. In health care, you are paying insurance (which, by the way, is a guarantee of NOTHING as far as actual coverage) AND your are paying for those who can't afford health care and therefore use emergency medicine to treat issues AFTER they occur rather than practicing any form of preventative medicine.
Socialized mail service? I'm not sure I would characterize it as "socialized". I think a more appropriate term would be monopoly.
Call it what you want, we have it, it's government controlled, taxpayer supported and every government in the world has it. Just like health care. Except for us. Sounds like a socialized institution to me (at least by the republican standard of "socialized") And for it to be a monopoly, companies like UPS, FEDEX and all the other players would have to be barred doing business. You can send mail type items through all the other carriers, it's just incredibly expensive.
Socialized military? In what respect? In terms of medical care a centralized medical command is a necessity since your local hospital isn't going to give wound care on the battlefield.
Socialized in that the personality of every service member is stripped away in creating the "soldier" and they are subjugated for the greater good of the state. Their needs are taken care of for them. Except for after-care of our combat damaged soldiers, which is deplorable. That's a whole 'nother can of worms though. In fact, this is far more in line with the ACTUAL meaning of socialism and communism and Republicans would do well to actually grasp that rather than bandy the term "socialist" about like it was a f'n four letter word.
Taxpayer supported healthcare? In your city, county and state there are already programs that exist for low income and those unable to pay both locally and federally funded. What else do you want? In WA state you also have a state board of appeals for insurance that handles complaints for insurance compaies that do what you say they do. Since you "work in health care" (I am unsure in what capacity) you should be aware of these services that your patients could avail themselves of.
Programs that are woefully inadequate for most of the people who need them, who only practice secondary and tertiary treatment rather than preventative care, and who have had to cut the rolls of those covered due to the financial crisis of the last 3 years. In fact, the Repubs would just as soon further defund many of these programs entirely.
What else do I want? How about a health care system that isn't run by insurance companies, gives equal, high quality care to all and doesn't treat people like a walking dollar sign whom they can refuse care to keep profits high. When you are doing something that the rest of the civilized world finds literally laughable, then perhaps its time to re-examine our priorities in regards to pursuit of the almighty dollar vs. the health and well being of the all-important taxpayer. I know this isn't a new argument and we are unlikely to agree or sway each other, so I'm not sure why I'm even bothering, but; you see the problem being government running anything and I see the problem being the greedy, profit driven corporations that value the almighty dollar over human lives.
I am aware of the services. I am aware how they are vaporizing right before our eyes and for the record, I am in the BSN program at Seattle University and currently in my clinicals, coming in contact with grossly underserved patients each day. My wife is an ER nurse part time to put me through school, and an Advanced Registered Nurse Practitioner in chronic pain management.
As typical of democrats, they talk around subjects while ignoring certain inconvenient truths. Their grasp of the subjects seems limited to what they are told without ever performing any real analysis except to "know" that SOMETHING must be done and it is obviously the other party's fault. If people actually thought about something longer than 30 seconds, formed an opinion based on fact from a variety of sources we would all be much better off than we are today.
We can both toss insults back and forth about each other about the general characteristics of the makeup of our respective party's base. Since you decided to go there, I would say that the R's do a great job of blindly following, beeing "sheeple" and blathering talking points from further up the chain. There. Feels good doesn't it? We won't get anywhere insulting each other though. In fact we may never get truly anywhere other than a road of middle mediocrity. The ship is too big to turn with our pathetically small rudders. People cry out that things have changed so drastically, when, if people were to examine it all, very little changes from administration to administration, and that's because people can agree on anything.
Instead of characterizing the Republican party as the "party of No", it is time you and the rest of your democrat supporters realize that it wasn't the party saying no, it was the constituents who sent their representatives to Washington that told them to say no. The majority of the country DID NOT want socialized healthcare in spite of it being rammed down our throats. If it is a priority for this country to provide healthcare for the leeches in our society, then we can simply adjust our current programs instead of adding bazillions of dollars to our debt to take care of an estimated 15 million people.
You have free public education in WA state? I don't think so. Revenue for your school system is derived from property taxes and state sales tax therefore it is NOT free.
Um...Where do I start with this? Lets try this. There's a lot of hypocrisy in the Republican message calling things "socialist" and "free". Sure schools are supported by taxes, but you aren't paying over and above that to pay for it and send your kids there. Thats what I mean by free. In health care, you are paying insurance (which, by the way, is a guarantee of NOTHING as far as actual coverage) AND your are paying for those who can't afford health care and therefore use emergency medicine to treat issues AFTER they occur rather than practicing any form of preventative medicine.
Socialized mail service? I'm not sure I would characterize it as "socialized". I think a more appropriate term would be monopoly.
Call it what you want, we have it, it's government controlled, taxpayer supported and every government in the world has it. Just like health care. Except for us. Sounds like a socialized institution to me (at least by the republican standard of "socialized") And for it to be a monopoly, companies like UPS, FEDEX and all the other players would have to be barred doing business. You can send mail type items through all the other carriers, it's just incredibly expensive.
Socialized military? In what respect? In terms of medical care a centralized medical command is a necessity since your local hospital isn't going to give wound care on the battlefield.
Socialized in that the personality of every service member is stripped away in creating the "soldier" and they are subjugated for the greater good of the state. Their needs are taken care of for them. Except for after-care of our combat damaged soldiers, which is deplorable. That's a whole 'nother can of worms though. In fact, this is far more in line with the ACTUAL meaning of socialism and communism and Republicans would do well to actually grasp that rather than bandy the term "socialist" about like it was a f'n four letter word.
Taxpayer supported healthcare? In your city, county and state there are already programs that exist for low income and those unable to pay both locally and federally funded. What else do you want? In WA state you also have a state board of appeals for insurance that handles complaints for insurance compaies that do what you say they do. Since you "work in health care" (I am unsure in what capacity) you should be aware of these services that your patients could avail themselves of.
Programs that are woefully inadequate for most of the people who need them, who only practice secondary and tertiary treatment rather than preventative care, and who have had to cut the rolls of those covered due to the financial crisis of the last 3 years. In fact, the Repubs would just as soon further defund many of these programs entirely.
What else do I want? How about a health care system that isn't run by insurance companies, gives equal, high quality care to all and doesn't treat people like a walking dollar sign whom they can refuse care to keep profits high. When you are doing something that the rest of the civilized world finds literally laughable, then perhaps its time to re-examine our priorities in regards to pursuit of the almighty dollar vs. the health and well being of the all-important taxpayer. I know this isn't a new argument and we are unlikely to agree or sway each other, so I'm not sure why I'm even bothering, but; you see the problem being government running anything and I see the problem being the greedy, profit driven corporations that value the almighty dollar over human lives.
I am aware of the services. I am aware how they are vaporizing right before our eyes and for the record, I am in the BSN program at Seattle University and currently in my clinicals, coming in contact with grossly underserved patients each day. My wife is an ER nurse part time to put me through school, and an Advanced Registered Nurse Practitioner in chronic pain management.
As typical of democrats, they talk around subjects while ignoring certain inconvenient truths. Their grasp of the subjects seems limited to what they are told without ever performing any real analysis except to "know" that SOMETHING must be done and it is obviously the other party's fault. If people actually thought about something longer than 30 seconds, formed an opinion based on fact from a variety of sources we would all be much better off than we are today.
We can both toss insults back and forth about each other about the general characteristics of the makeup of our respective party's base. Since you decided to go there, I would say that the R's do a great job of blindly following, beeing "sheeple" and blathering talking points from further up the chain. There. Feels good doesn't it? We won't get anywhere insulting each other though. In fact we may never get truly anywhere other than a road of middle mediocrity. The ship is too big to turn with our pathetically small rudders. People cry out that things have changed so drastically, when, if people were to examine it all, very little changes from administration to administration, and that's because people can agree on anything.
Instead of characterizing the Republican party as the "party of No", it is time you and the rest of your democrat supporters realize that it wasn't the party saying no, it was the constituents who sent their representatives to Washington that told them to say no. The majority of the country DID NOT want socialized healthcare in spite of it being rammed down our throats. If it is a priority for this country to provide healthcare for the leeches in our society, then we can simply adjust our current programs instead of adding bazillions of dollars to our debt to take care of an estimated 15 million people.
Whatever. I think your mildly deluded to think that representatives really vote the will of the constituents. I think those days are long gone. Special interests and PACs have long since monetarily incentivized the will of the people right out of the picture. There is not forum for the average American citizen to become informed about things such as health care without being poisoned from one side of the aisle or the other. If Americans would actually travel abroad and form their own informed opinions, we'd all be better educated on the subject. Unfortunately an astonishing percentage of US citizen never leave their own county, much less their own state or the actual country. The fact that you characterize people seeking a basic human right to their health as "Leeches" is indicative of what is wrong with America vs. the rest of the world.
and with that, I'm off to celebrate my daughter's first birthday. Have a nice day.
12-04-2010 | 11:55 AM
#33
Senior Member
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 312
As typical of democrats, they talk around subjects while ignoring certain inconvenient truths.
12-04-2010 | 01:47 PM
#34
Former Superchicken Owner
SuperBike
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,607
From: Ft. Worth, TX
Programs that are woefully inadequate for most of the people who need them, who only practice secondary and tertiary treatment rather than preventative care, and who have had to cut the rolls of those covered due to the financial crisis of the last 3 years. In fact, the Repubs would just as soon further defund many of these programs entirely.
What else do I want? How about a health care system that isn't run by insurance companies, gives equal, high quality care to all and doesn't treat people like a walking dollar sign whom they can refuse care to keep profits high. When you are doing something that the rest of the civilized world finds literally laughable, then perhaps its time to re-examine our priorities in regards to pursuit of the almighty dollar vs. the health and well being of the all-important taxpayer. I know this isn't a new argument and we are unlikely to agree or sway each other, so I'm not sure why I'm even bothering, but; you see the problem being government running anything and I see the problem being the greedy, profit driven corporations that value the almighty dollar over human lives.
I am aware of the services. I am aware how they are vaporizing right before our eyes and for the record, I am in the BSN program at Seattle University and currently in my clinicals, coming in contact with grossly underserved patients each day. My wife is an ER nurse part time to put me through school, and an Advanced Registered Nurse Practitioner in chronic pain management.
What else do I want? How about a health care system that isn't run by insurance companies, gives equal, high quality care to all and doesn't treat people like a walking dollar sign whom they can refuse care to keep profits high. When you are doing something that the rest of the civilized world finds literally laughable, then perhaps its time to re-examine our priorities in regards to pursuit of the almighty dollar vs. the health and well being of the all-important taxpayer. I know this isn't a new argument and we are unlikely to agree or sway each other, so I'm not sure why I'm even bothering, but; you see the problem being government running anything and I see the problem being the greedy, profit driven corporations that value the almighty dollar over human lives.
I am aware of the services. I am aware how they are vaporizing right before our eyes and for the record, I am in the BSN program at Seattle University and currently in my clinicals, coming in contact with grossly underserved patients each day. My wife is an ER nurse part time to put me through school, and an Advanced Registered Nurse Practitioner in chronic pain management.
You are correct in your statement that you will not sway me. I too have extensive experience in the health care industry since I paid for my wife's medical school and coached her through every stinking year of it! She FINALLY opened her own practice where she employs 4 NPs as physician multipliers but I applaud your dedication to the health care industry. I hope through your dedication to serve you may be able to positively impact people's lives through outreach and volunteer activities. Just for your information my wife's office does not accept Medicare/Medicaid patients. She does plenty of free work without involving the government and their EXTENSIVE reporting requirements for half of what everyone else pays. Just doesn't make good financial sense to involve the government.
I have and still do travel extensively abroad and I have seen the results of taxpayer institutionalized health care and it isn't so pretty. Our friends to the north have such a system and believe it or not, private health care is a burgeoning industry there.
Your idea of free and mine are completely different with respect to funding schools. My property tax alone for this year is over $4000.00 dollars, used to support the local schools, county college, county hospitals and various other programs. Is that free? Nope, sure isn't. Free means no cost to me.
The United States Postal Service is authorized by the Constitution of the US. Since its reorganization into an independent organization, the USPS has become self-sufficient and has not directly received taxpayer-dollars since the early 1980's with the minor exception of subsidies for costs associated with the disabled and overseas voters. However, it is currently borrowing money from the U.S. Treasury to pay its deficits. If that fits your definition of socialism then I suggest you relook your copy of Websters but is most accurately defined as an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources.
I will make an assumption that you have never served in the military. When you say that the "personality of every service member is stripped away in creating the soldier and they are subjugated for the greater good of the state". Soldiers are made by instilling discipline and a sense of duty. Personality has no room in this equation. If you order someone to advance on a fighting position you want to be assured that they will follow orders and not interpret the orders according to their own sets of values or "personality".
If you interpreted my comments regarding democrats and their inability to process a logical thought as an insult it certainly wasn't intended that way, it was just an observation of the democratic party as a whole.
12-04-2010 | 04:31 PM
#35
Senior Member
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,611
From: Belgium, WI
About schools. The mil rate locally is 9.xxx, which literally means that I pay, along with others in the typical home, $1500-2000 a year for public education. If I run the numbers, as if I were to be living in a home for 50 years(just to give an idea, I am sure we might live longer) with no inflation, the cost to educate my cildren (wait, dont have any) would be 75,000-100,000. So much for free? But, in its defense, the money has to come from somewhere because we choose (we-legislate) to educate every child.
As for drinking the coolaid, wyldrice, you couldnt have a beggier man-crush on Obama if you tried.
As for drinking the coolaid, wyldrice, you couldnt have a beggier man-crush on Obama if you tried.
12-05-2010 | 01:02 PM
#36
Senior Member
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 293
I wouldn't say I have a man crush on him, just that I respect the difficult position he is in. I feel let down by this administration, but feel that it's mostly been out of the his scope of control. I respect that he has made an attempt (and failed) to try and please those on both sides of the aisle. Politics has gotten so dirty that all one side seeks to do is tear down the other. There is nothing constructive in that. When a parties guiding principle is publicly stated as "to see (insert name here) Fail" then we have truly failed to elect the right representatives. Then we all fail. So I guess at the end of all of this, I'd say that democracy hasn't worked out so spendidly.
Also, as far as drinking the Koolaid goes, somebody please explain to me how you are going to cut the deficit by making tax cuts permanent for all (take in less revenue) and cut spending (most social programs have been gutted already, so I suppose that means no more invading countries and shooting brown people?). At the most that's a zero sum (and that's optimistic) We've got hard times ahead. I'm sure the RIGHT think they could do a shitload better, but history indicates otherwise.
As to health care and schools. Of course it's not FREE. Nothing is actually FREE. We all pay for it one way or another; that's what taxes do. If you think you don't want to pay taxes and can hack it all yourself, pull up off the grid and disappear from Uncle Sam and see how that works out for you. But for those of you involved in health care, I DEFY you to tell me that stress created by people worrying about their health care needs and how they will be met doesn't contribute to negative outcomes in people's health. Stress kills, plain and simple. Worrying about how you are going to make it, and the the whopper of a bill you are going to leave when you are gone isn't going to help you stay healthy, and the fact of the matter is, we aren't big on making sure you stay healthy, only treating you after it starts to go wrong. Except then, no insurance company wants to pay for that. They only want you on their rolls if they don't have to pay out. Sorry, but that's evil. It's shitty enough when it's car insurance, it's entirely different when it's your life.
I'll also point out that American's memory is stupily short. This model of insurance companies controlling American's health is a relatively new idea reaching back to the Nixon administration. So I know Americans LOVE to think we have it all figured out in a way that the rest of the world can't seem to grasp, but it goes back to the old saying of, "is the rest of the world crazy, or is it you?"
Also, as far as drinking the Koolaid goes, somebody please explain to me how you are going to cut the deficit by making tax cuts permanent for all (take in less revenue) and cut spending (most social programs have been gutted already, so I suppose that means no more invading countries and shooting brown people?). At the most that's a zero sum (and that's optimistic) We've got hard times ahead. I'm sure the RIGHT think they could do a shitload better, but history indicates otherwise.
As to health care and schools. Of course it's not FREE. Nothing is actually FREE. We all pay for it one way or another; that's what taxes do. If you think you don't want to pay taxes and can hack it all yourself, pull up off the grid and disappear from Uncle Sam and see how that works out for you. But for those of you involved in health care, I DEFY you to tell me that stress created by people worrying about their health care needs and how they will be met doesn't contribute to negative outcomes in people's health. Stress kills, plain and simple. Worrying about how you are going to make it, and the the whopper of a bill you are going to leave when you are gone isn't going to help you stay healthy, and the fact of the matter is, we aren't big on making sure you stay healthy, only treating you after it starts to go wrong. Except then, no insurance company wants to pay for that. They only want you on their rolls if they don't have to pay out. Sorry, but that's evil. It's shitty enough when it's car insurance, it's entirely different when it's your life.
I'll also point out that American's memory is stupily short. This model of insurance companies controlling American's health is a relatively new idea reaching back to the Nixon administration. So I know Americans LOVE to think we have it all figured out in a way that the rest of the world can't seem to grasp, but it goes back to the old saying of, "is the rest of the world crazy, or is it you?"
12-05-2010 | 01:45 PM
#37
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From: Ft. Worth, TX
12-05-2010 | 02:16 PM
#38
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Joined: Apr 2007
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http://www.pbs.org/healthcarecrisis/history.htm
To be fair, I doubt his INTENT wasn't to have health insurance companies call the shots and run everything, rather, they were to be a party to managed health care. It was only the natural greedy progression that has led us to where we are now.
It is also extremely interesting to note that all the ideas that Obama has suggested that are viewed by the right as "radical" and "socialist" are actually less so than what Nixon put forth. Also interesting to note that the opposition to National health insurance, as put forth by the Nixon administration was the Left and the Unions. So why can't we all get on the same page now?
We tried to get a similar system to what the UK enacted in '48 going in the 40's as well, but failed to do so. What a shame.
Off to study for finals. See ya'll in a week when I can resurface. I'm sure you all will miss me.
To be fair, I doubt his INTENT wasn't to have health insurance companies call the shots and run everything, rather, they were to be a party to managed health care. It was only the natural greedy progression that has led us to where we are now.
It is also extremely interesting to note that all the ideas that Obama has suggested that are viewed by the right as "radical" and "socialist" are actually less so than what Nixon put forth. Also interesting to note that the opposition to National health insurance, as put forth by the Nixon administration was the Left and the Unions. So why can't we all get on the same page now?
We tried to get a similar system to what the UK enacted in '48 going in the 40's as well, but failed to do so. What a shame.
Off to study for finals. See ya'll in a week when I can resurface. I'm sure you all will miss me.
12-05-2010 | 02:29 PM
#39
Former Superchicken Owner
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,607
From: Ft. Worth, TX
I looked at your link and found it to be a rather myopic view. I see you must have skimmed right over this part:
"Healthcare costs are escalating rapidly, partially due to unexpectedly high Medicare expenditures, rapid inflation in the economy, expansion of hospital expenses and profits, and changes in medical care including greater use of technology, medications, and conservative approaches to treatment. American medicine is now seen as in crisis."
I don't think you can point to one piece of legislation by any administration that could be held responsible for rising costs. Suffice to say, insurance companies are in the business for profit, much like hospitals. There is a constant tug of war between all parties concerned but spending billions upon billions of tax payer's money to do what a few legislative tweaks could do is ludicrous.
Good luck on your finals!
"Healthcare costs are escalating rapidly, partially due to unexpectedly high Medicare expenditures, rapid inflation in the economy, expansion of hospital expenses and profits, and changes in medical care including greater use of technology, medications, and conservative approaches to treatment. American medicine is now seen as in crisis."
I don't think you can point to one piece of legislation by any administration that could be held responsible for rising costs. Suffice to say, insurance companies are in the business for profit, much like hospitals. There is a constant tug of war between all parties concerned but spending billions upon billions of tax payer's money to do what a few legislative tweaks could do is ludicrous.
Good luck on your finals!
12-05-2010 | 05:54 PM
#40
mildly retarded
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,278
From: Denver, CO
socialized healthcare? here's a good read.........http://dailycaller.com/2010/10/11/gr...s-money-saver/
Liberalism is a mental disease.
Liberalism is a mental disease.
12-05-2010 | 08:16 PM
#42
Senior Member
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Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Belgium, WI
free market economy design keeps prices down. Imagine if your local firewood guys are selling at 3 different prices/cord. Where are you going to go? How does that effect the selling price of the other two firewood guys? Are they going to stick to their price and offer better service, quality of product, or change their price? Now, what if the government, with the help of the Firewood sales council, decides to set prices at the higher price so that those who cant afford firewood will be given it for free, and those who can- will pay.
Don't socialize my firewood!
edit: Whoops, dont socialize my everything. Hopefully you can figure out how it applies. Oh, and when do you think that large scale denial of service began?
Don't socialize my firewood!
edit: Whoops, dont socialize my everything. Hopefully you can figure out how it applies. Oh, and when do you think that large scale denial of service began?
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