Obamageddon!
03-26-2010, 12:22 AM
#721
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Way Out West
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"...it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to CONTROL THE PEOPLE."
John Dingell (D) Michigan
Obamacare Sponsor
March 24, 2010
John Dingell (D) Michigan
Obamacare Sponsor
March 24, 2010
03-26-2010, 05:10 AM
#722
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: altoona, pa
Posts: 2,934
Dictator/Murderer Fidel Castro Applauds Obamacare!!!
http://www.wkrg.com/medical/article/...-2010_2-33-pm/
http://www.wkrg.com/medical/article/...-2010_2-33-pm/
While we're acting like we have a democracy of, by, and for the people here, the product of our votes, elected officials who are assumed to represent the people at large, is actually controlled wholly by special interest groups who have only their own financial welfare and control in mind.
As a consequence of these conditions, this so called health care reform will primarily benefit medical insurance conglomerates and minimally the average citizen, similar to throwing a few scraps to the dogs to stop them from barking for a while. To me it's just another insult heaped onto the bailing out of the financials, the auto industry and others who abused their positions to the detriment of all Americans present and future. The corruption of the present and recent administrations that allowed this to occur without resistance proves to me that our "representative" democracy has been systematically transformed into an aristocratic oligarchy while average Americans have been, and mostly still are, asleep at the wheel.
03-26-2010, 06:35 AM
#724
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SuperSport
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Delmar NY
Posts: 805
I like how nobody is bringing up any facts, just vague, terrible, and mostly wrong ideas. If you guys honestly believe that a very small hike in taxes on those who will probably never notice it, and that is projected to decrease the national deficit by over a trillion dollars in the next 10 years, is not worth helping 32 million american PEOPLE, then I have absolutely no respect for you.
I'm really sorry to say Maverick (cuz on bike topics your ok) that we don't want your respect. I don't need or want the respect of those who feel they are entitled IN ANY WAY to someone elses stuff.
Why don't you steal some gas? The minimart will probably never notice the $10 in your Hawk. Go help yourself to something in your neighbors fridge while he's at work. He will PROBABLY never notice it.
I am not against some sensible regulation of an industry that is SCREWING up health care, I am against the redistribution of wealth beyond that which is necessary to meet the responsibilities of the Federal government as outlined in the Constitution.
If you want others to pay for your health care then MOVE TO CANADA.
03-26-2010, 08:08 AM
#726
Senior Member
Superstock
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 320
First post here (I own a 98 Superhawk, love it, commute on it every day).
I'm wondering what you guys think of the mortgage crisis. I'm torn because I am generally a guy who thinks less government is better, but my personal situation right now has me rethinking this.
I'm in the Army. Just got back from being in Kuwait for a year. I bought a house (my first) in the DC area just after getting married in 2007. Now I'm about 80K underwater on my mortgage. I can pay my mortgage just fine, but I can't afford to sell the damn house and lose 80K, and renting it out won't cover the mortgage payment. The Army is going to move me in 2012, and I don't have a damn thing to say about that. What the hell am I supposed to do? I don't qualify for any of the mortgage help so far. The mortgage company doesn't even want to talk to me unless I miss a payment.
Now Obama is pushing incentives that will cost taxpayers a ton of money to tempt mortgage companies to cut the principal on loans to match the current appraised value. That would help me a ton, but it's going to cost taxpayers a lot of money. An estimated 25% of mortgages are underwater. That sucks, but I can't for a second think that it's the homeowners fault in every case, because it's normally not their fault. What did I do wrong to be 80K in the hole on my mortgage? I've never missed a payment on anything in my life. I've never speculated in the market, other than buying a home to live in.
So should the government bail people like me out? Or should the government force banks to adjust these mortgages? If the government should stay out of it all, then how do we fix this mess?
I'm wondering what you guys think of the mortgage crisis. I'm torn because I am generally a guy who thinks less government is better, but my personal situation right now has me rethinking this.
I'm in the Army. Just got back from being in Kuwait for a year. I bought a house (my first) in the DC area just after getting married in 2007. Now I'm about 80K underwater on my mortgage. I can pay my mortgage just fine, but I can't afford to sell the damn house and lose 80K, and renting it out won't cover the mortgage payment. The Army is going to move me in 2012, and I don't have a damn thing to say about that. What the hell am I supposed to do? I don't qualify for any of the mortgage help so far. The mortgage company doesn't even want to talk to me unless I miss a payment.
Now Obama is pushing incentives that will cost taxpayers a ton of money to tempt mortgage companies to cut the principal on loans to match the current appraised value. That would help me a ton, but it's going to cost taxpayers a lot of money. An estimated 25% of mortgages are underwater. That sucks, but I can't for a second think that it's the homeowners fault in every case, because it's normally not their fault. What did I do wrong to be 80K in the hole on my mortgage? I've never missed a payment on anything in my life. I've never speculated in the market, other than buying a home to live in.
So should the government bail people like me out? Or should the government force banks to adjust these mortgages? If the government should stay out of it all, then how do we fix this mess?
03-26-2010, 08:43 AM
#727
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: altoona, pa
Posts: 2,934
I'm really sorry to say Maverick (cuz on bike topics your ok) that we don't want your respect. I don't need or want the respect of those who feel they are entitled IN ANY WAY to someone elses stuff.
Why don't you steal some gas? The minimart will probably never notice the $10 in your Hawk. Go help yourself to something in your neighbors fridge while he's at work. He will PROBABLY never notice it.
I am not against some sensible regulation of an industry that is SCREWING up health care, I am against the redistribution of wealth beyond that which is necessary to meet the responsibilities of the Federal government as outlined in the Constitution.
If you want others to pay for your health care then MOVE TO CANADA.
Why don't you steal some gas? The minimart will probably never notice the $10 in your Hawk. Go help yourself to something in your neighbors fridge while he's at work. He will PROBABLY never notice it.
I am not against some sensible regulation of an industry that is SCREWING up health care, I am against the redistribution of wealth beyond that which is necessary to meet the responsibilities of the Federal government as outlined in the Constitution.
If you want others to pay for your health care then MOVE TO CANADA.
I believe that your point of view is limited by what you have experienced in terms of your personal success, but fails to consider what other possibilities could have easily occurred had you been handicapped or otherwise less fortunate and suffered adverse conditions beyond your control. If we as a society were uncivilized and had to rely soley on the innate behavior of the animal kingdom "survival of the fittest" mentality, devoid of love and the human ability to empathisize, to understand and feel what others are experiencing, then i might agree with your need to project your viewpoint on others.
i agree that there are sloths and parasites in our society, but there is no level playing field by which to judge. My philosophy since starting a family has been one of take what you need and leave the rest for someone else, don't waste things, do onto others......., work your ***** off and be passionate about what you are doing, be honest and honorable, help others less fortunate, do your own thing and not worry about competing to define your own self worth, among other qualities i deemed to be what it shoud be to be a good member of society. Unfortunately, it seems that these aspirations, although realized for the most part in my case, have not been adopted by many of my fellow members and for this we are all and will be deminished as a culture. Alexis DeToqueville's observations are manifesting themselves quicker than i could have ever imagined.
Last edited by nath981; 03-26-2010 at 10:13 AM.
03-26-2010, 08:47 AM
#728
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Superstock
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Woodland Hills, CA
Posts: 421
I know it sucks and is frustrating; but if your house is now worth less, it is worth less... that has nothing to do with your lender. The same applies to buying a car or anything else! Should I get a reduction on the loan for the car I bought a year ago because it is worth less? Should I get a reduction on my credit card purchase from the grocery store I made last week because eggs are cheaper this week? No.... and No.
Principal reduction and homeowner bailout talk kinda pisses me off. Why should someone be loaned, say, $50... and then through the intervention of a 3rd party only have to pay back $40? Lending can't work that way and be sustainable.
The bank, auto and insurance bailouts sucked (though I still debate whether they may have been necessary), and the idea we should extend that concept further just sucks more. People need to be responsible for the results of their decisions, and ultimately the house purchase was your decision.
Sorry if this sounds harsh or like a rant. I do sympathize and am in the same boat as a homeowner... though not far upside-down, and possibly even right now.
03-26-2010, 09:23 AM
#729
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MotoGP
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Way Out West
Posts: 2,547
First post here (I own a 98 Superhawk, love it, commute on it every day).
I'm wondering what you guys think of the mortgage crisis. I'm torn because I am generally a guy who thinks less government is better, but my personal situation right now has me rethinking this.
I'm in the Army. Just got back from being in Kuwait for a year. I bought a house (my first) in the DC area just after getting married in 2007. Now I'm about 80K underwater on my mortgage. I can pay my mortgage just fine, but I can't afford to sell the damn house and lose 80K, and renting it out won't cover the mortgage payment. The Army is going to move me in 2012, and I don't have a damn thing to say about that. What the hell am I supposed to do? I don't qualify for any of the mortgage help so far. The mortgage company doesn't even want to talk to me unless I miss a payment.
Now Obama is pushing incentives that will cost taxpayers a ton of money to tempt mortgage companies to cut the principal on loans to match the current appraised value. That would help me a ton, but it's going to cost taxpayers a lot of money. An estimated 25% of mortgages are underwater. That sucks, but I can't for a second think that it's the homeowners fault in every case, because it's normally not their fault. What did I do wrong to be 80K in the hole on my mortgage? I've never missed a payment on anything in my life. I've never speculated in the market, other than buying a home to live in.
So should the government bail people like me out? Or should the government force banks to adjust these mortgages? If the government should stay out of it all, then how do we fix this mess?
I'm wondering what you guys think of the mortgage crisis. I'm torn because I am generally a guy who thinks less government is better, but my personal situation right now has me rethinking this.
I'm in the Army. Just got back from being in Kuwait for a year. I bought a house (my first) in the DC area just after getting married in 2007. Now I'm about 80K underwater on my mortgage. I can pay my mortgage just fine, but I can't afford to sell the damn house and lose 80K, and renting it out won't cover the mortgage payment. The Army is going to move me in 2012, and I don't have a damn thing to say about that. What the hell am I supposed to do? I don't qualify for any of the mortgage help so far. The mortgage company doesn't even want to talk to me unless I miss a payment.
Now Obama is pushing incentives that will cost taxpayers a ton of money to tempt mortgage companies to cut the principal on loans to match the current appraised value. That would help me a ton, but it's going to cost taxpayers a lot of money. An estimated 25% of mortgages are underwater. That sucks, but I can't for a second think that it's the homeowners fault in every case, because it's normally not their fault. What did I do wrong to be 80K in the hole on my mortgage? I've never missed a payment on anything in my life. I've never speculated in the market, other than buying a home to live in.
So should the government bail people like me out? Or should the government force banks to adjust these mortgages? If the government should stay out of it all, then how do we fix this mess?
None of the programs President Erkel has championed have helped anyone but Goldman Sachs, AIG, and the other Wall Street ****** who financed his campaign.
You should do what's best for you and yours. The bank didn't finance your home because they love and respect you. They figured if you got in trouble they could sell it out from under you, keep what you'd put into it and make a profit.
Are you living in the house? If I was living in the house and had the money I might keep paying for the time being.
If I had to move I'd tell the bank they could redo the loan based on current market value, or they could have back.
I understand current federal laws, reporting rules and regulations encourage banks to refuse to re-negotiate mortgages.
Erkel and the Dem Congress could do something about that, but they are very busy right now sucking up to our enemies, screwing our allies and taking over the health care industry.
Besides, President Erkel (D), Senate banking Chair Dodd (D) Connecticut and House Banking Chair Fwank (D) Massachusetts all got a boatload of campaign cash from Wall Street banks.
03-26-2010, 09:33 AM
#730
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 320
The frustrating thing for military members is that I did not choose to live in the DC area. The Army moved me here. I did choose to buy a house, but I don't have the choice that most other people have of just staying in my house and waiting out this mess. The Army is going to move me again in 2012, and that is going to force me into foreclosure unless there are some crazy changes between now and then.
I would have never imagained that I might have to foreclose on a house I can afford just because the Army moves me away.
Last edited by evines; 03-26-2010 at 09:40 AM.
03-26-2010, 09:46 AM
#731
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 987
I'm in the Army. Just got back from being in Kuwait for a year. I bought a house (my first) in the DC area just after getting married in 2007. Now I'm about 80K underwater on my mortgage. I can pay my mortgage just fine, but I can't afford to sell the damn house and lose 80K, and renting it out won't cover the mortgage payment. The Army is going to move me in 2012, and I don't have a damn thing to say about that. What the hell am I supposed to do? I don't qualify for any of the mortgage help so far. The mortgage company doesn't even want to talk to me unless I miss a payment.
The bank could allow people to refi into a fixed loan for whatever they owe, no matter how much higher than their current house value. The government can back the difference, directly, or by incentivising private mortgage insurance companies. And any program they do should start from the top down, not the bottom up. There are some honest people that can afford a 30-yr fixed, but can't refi into one due to being underwater, so they are facing a rate adjustment and ammortization schedule they won't be able to afford. These are preventable foreclosures, and these people should be first in line. Not those who couldn't even afford what they signed up for in the first place, or those with 3 mortgages that can't afford one. They are a lost cause, the best way to help them is to kick them out on the street. The government could require the bank to give them the option of renting their own house to them for 1 year before putting it up for sale.
Now, for your situation. You aren't anchored to your house. You can leave and rent it out for $X,000 per month, and you can use that rental income to rent a new place out of equal or lesser value. Yes, rent won't cover the mortgage, but it never does even in a good economy until you've owned a place for quite awhile. Welcome to the club.
Personally, I got caught underwater by $100K. I am skimping every month so I can put as much extra on the mortgage as possible. I don't do this because I have pride, I do it because it's the best decision for me. The other option would be to hire a bankruptcy attorney and twist the bank's arm, take the credit hit and not be able to finance anything for the next next 6 years. I know some who have, which is fine as they are settled down with a family to feed and aren't going anywhere. I pay extra because I can and I think it's the easiest way out and doesn't come with strings attached.
Last edited by CentralCoaster; 03-26-2010 at 09:53 AM.
03-26-2010, 09:59 AM
#732
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 987
I almost completely agree with you. I did buy the house from an individual, but the bank agreed to loan me that money with the house as collateral. So the bank decided that my house was worth the money they loaned me. But now the house isn't worth the money they loaned me. At some point, it begins to make sense to foreclose, take the hit on my credit, and give the house to the bank. This sounds "unethical" to some people, but it is completely within the agreement I settled into with the bank. I messed up by buying a house at the wrong time, and the bank messed up by appraising my house incorrectly. We both lose, but the person who buys my house from me at an insane discount wins.
The problem I have, is the gov't has removed the negative consequences from the bank's decisions. This has allowed the banks to operate without any cash in their pockets and take on excess risk. Obviously their bad decisions will affect you at some point, but you don't have to feel guilty or responsible for it.
03-26-2010, 10:38 AM
#733
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Way Out West
Posts: 2,547
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion...Ly4ZwXZcoCFIEI
Obama's triple-diplo-whammy day.
Capitulating to Putin, sucking up to Taliban loving Paks, insulting and screwing Israel.
Col. Ralph Peters. Worth reading.
Obama's triple-diplo-whammy day.
Capitulating to Putin, sucking up to Taliban loving Paks, insulting and screwing Israel.
Col. Ralph Peters. Worth reading.
03-26-2010, 10:42 AM
#734
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MotoGP
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Way Out West
Posts: 2,547
Message to Dems;
People still don't don't liker Obamacare.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/po...-89180557.html
People still don't don't liker Obamacare.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/po...-89180557.html
03-26-2010, 10:46 AM
#735
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 987
It sounds more like you just want to get a rise out of people than talk about the facts.
I could honestly care less what the polls say about obama care, people don't know enough about it. But then again neither do the people voting for it. I always vote no unless I have enough info vote otherwise.
I could honestly care less what the polls say about obama care, people don't know enough about it. But then again neither do the people voting for it. I always vote no unless I have enough info vote otherwise.
03-26-2010, 10:47 AM
#736
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Way Out West
Posts: 2,547
Start with this:
Please cite for me the clause in the Constitution which authorizes the Fed Gov to force me to buy medical insurance.
Next? the clause which authorizes the Fed Gov to force me to subsidize your insurance. Or your mortgage, or AIG's bankrupcy, or your kid's publik skrool lunch baloney sandwich.
Last edited by RK1; 03-26-2010 at 10:58 AM.
03-26-2010, 11:15 AM
#737
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 987
Wow. It sounds like you're already putting me on a side here.
The constitution is not a self-contained manual on how to run the country. But I agree, new laws should not violate it. And the new health insurance bill, as I understand it, infringes upon my freedoms as written in the bill of rights, along with income tax. Or did they repeal that bill when they voted on the health care bill? I think requiring insurance of any sort is unethical.
You can shout idealism from your rooftop, but it's a futile argument and unproductive. Nobody running for office on your platform will get elected. Let's be realistic here. Unless you're just in it for the entertainment value.
The constitution is not a self-contained manual on how to run the country. But I agree, new laws should not violate it. And the new health insurance bill, as I understand it, infringes upon my freedoms as written in the bill of rights, along with income tax. Or did they repeal that bill when they voted on the health care bill? I think requiring insurance of any sort is unethical.
You can shout idealism from your rooftop, but it's a futile argument and unproductive. Nobody running for office on your platform will get elected. Let's be realistic here. Unless you're just in it for the entertainment value.
03-26-2010, 11:30 AM
#739
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Way Out West
Posts: 2,547
Wow. It sounds like you're already putting me on a side here.
The constitution is not a self-contained manual on how to run the country. But I agree, new laws should not violate it. And the new health insurance bill, as I understand it, infringes upon my freedoms as written in the bill of rights, along with income tax. Or did they repeal that bill when they voted on the health care bill? I think requiring insurance of any sort is unethical.
You can shout idealism from your rooftop, but it's a futile argument and unproductive. Nobody running for office on your platform will get elected. Let's be realistic here. Unless you're just in it for the entertainment value.
The constitution is not a self-contained manual on how to run the country. But I agree, new laws should not violate it. And the new health insurance bill, as I understand it, infringes upon my freedoms as written in the bill of rights, along with income tax. Or did they repeal that bill when they voted on the health care bill? I think requiring insurance of any sort is unethical.
You can shout idealism from your rooftop, but it's a futile argument and unproductive. Nobody running for office on your platform will get elected. Let's be realistic here. Unless you're just in it for the entertainment value.
The Constitution is exactly, precisely a manual on how to run the country. Why else bother having one? Why do you think they took the time to write it and ratify it? The fact that so many people don't respect it doesn't change that.
Ron Paul runs and gets elected on "my" platform, but that's about it.
I think it important to know what the Constitution requires this county to be, understand clearly how totally those requirements have been violated, and then vote for those who at least move things back toward where they belong instead of further away.
The Constitution as written is the contract between the people and the Federal Government.
The Bill of Rights actually makes it the contract between the FedGov and each and every individual American citizen.
Last edited by RK1; 03-26-2010 at 11:40 AM.
03-26-2010, 11:54 AM
#740
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii USA
Posts: 427
My response to "someone" helping the poor, as I do voluntarily, is to cheer and congratulate. But the government is not "someone".
There is nothing whatsoever in the Constitution, Bill of Rights, Federalist Papers, or any record left by the Founders that they intended the FedGov to be the agent of wealth distribution backed by force of law and arms.
I am really, really sick of people who give little or nothing of themselves, but assuage their guilt by demanding the government "do something" ie; extort money from others against their will, an extortion ultimately backed up by men with face masks, jack boots and machine guns.
Care about the poor and unfortunate? Prove it. Put your money and time where your big fat sanctimonious pie whole is. Put up or shut up.
PS nekkid; This is not directed at you personally, but at all those who see the government as an armed enforcer of mandatory "charity" morality.
Second PS for some perspective;
Of every dollar you give to the Salvation Army, about 80 cents actually goes to the needy.
Of every dollar extorted from you by the FedGov for so called "assistance"programs, less then 20 cents goes to the needy. The rest goes to the bureaucrats, their brother in law who runs the program, their kids, aunts, uncles, cousins and political donors who get the fat contracts.
There is nothing whatsoever in the Constitution, Bill of Rights, Federalist Papers, or any record left by the Founders that they intended the FedGov to be the agent of wealth distribution backed by force of law and arms.
I am really, really sick of people who give little or nothing of themselves, but assuage their guilt by demanding the government "do something" ie; extort money from others against their will, an extortion ultimately backed up by men with face masks, jack boots and machine guns.
Care about the poor and unfortunate? Prove it. Put your money and time where your big fat sanctimonious pie whole is. Put up or shut up.
PS nekkid; This is not directed at you personally, but at all those who see the government as an armed enforcer of mandatory "charity" morality.
Second PS for some perspective;
Of every dollar you give to the Salvation Army, about 80 cents actually goes to the needy.
Of every dollar extorted from you by the FedGov for so called "assistance"programs, less then 20 cents goes to the needy. The rest goes to the bureaucrats, their brother in law who runs the program, their kids, aunts, uncles, cousins and political donors who get the fat contracts.
Moderator(s): your take?
03-26-2010, 12:00 PM
#741
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 987
You talk as if this constitution was written by Jesus on stone tablets. It was written by men, and it is a changing document. The bill of rights was a constitutional amendment. Yeah that's right, something written up by politicians and voted on by congressmen. Kinda like the health care bill.
03-26-2010, 12:07 PM
#743
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Way Out West
Posts: 2,547
No offense taken. Good debate is necessary. I fear, though, this thread is degenerating into the turd-in-the-punchbowl. Some pretty harsh things are being written by people that originally gathered for a benign and joy-inspiring cause: the celebration of motorcycle riding. Some residual rancour is the probable result. Polarization is another great problem this country faces.
Moderator(s): your take?
Moderator(s): your take?
We have threads like this from time to time. If people dissing Obama and his policies is something you don't wish to participate in, a thread titled "Obamageddon" is probably not your cup of tea and nobody will demand you do so. It's still an almost kinda sorta for the time being free country.
PS holding rancor is an individual's choice. Tomorrow I'll be happy to offer sincere, good natured tuning advice to whoever called me nasty names on this thread today. I never take any of it personally for more than a minute or two.
Last edited by RK1; 03-26-2010 at 12:29 PM.
03-26-2010, 12:14 PM
#744
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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You talk as if this constitution was written by Jesus on stone tablets. It was written by men, and it is a changing document. The bill of rights was a constitutional amendment. Yeah that's right, something written up by politicians and voted on by congressmen. Kinda like the health care bill.
Not by Jesus, but written in stone? You bet. Part of that stone is the instrument's procedure for amendment. Two thirds of both houses of Congress, ratification by 3/4 of state legislatures.
It is a contract, not a "changing document".
Suppose I sign a five year lease for $2k/month on your upside down house.
Suppose six months in I decide it isn't really a contract, but a "changing document" and start sending you $750/month instead.
03-26-2010, 12:14 PM
#745
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 320
I don't think it's unethical. You didn't buy it with the intention of screwing the bank, and it's not as if foreclosure comes without consequences. As you said, the bank evaluated the cost-benefit and took a risk. It was a business deal and they agreed to the terms. If there were no risk, they wouldn't charge interest.
03-26-2010, 12:31 PM
#747
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SuperSport
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 987
Ok, got it.
The sad part is, you don't even realize that I agree with you on substance, just not on approach. Arguing about whether something violates with the constitution is a tired argument. Face it, most people, including congress, don't give a rats *** about the constitution, so you'll have to step it up. Unless that is, you just enjoy preaching to the choir. Personally I'd rather engage in some healthy discussion that requires rational thought and has a chance in hell of changing someone's mind, and god-forbid, even my own.
Kicking and screaming about communists and revolutions isn't going to accomplish that.
You want to change someone's mind? Try LISTENING to them for starters.
Last edited by CentralCoaster; 03-26-2010 at 12:34 PM.
03-26-2010, 12:40 PM
#748
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SuperSport
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Delmar NY
Posts: 805
I believe that your point of view is limited by what you have experienced in terms of your personal success, but fails to consider what other possibilities could have easily occurred had you been handicapped or otherwise less fortunate and suffered adverse conditions beyond your control. If we as a society were uncivilized and had to rely soley on the innate behavior of the animal kingdom "survival of the fittest" mentality, devoid of love and the human ability to empathisize, to understand and feel what others are experiencing, then i might agree with your need to project your viewpoint on others.
i agree that there are sloths and parasites in our society, but there is no level playing field by which to judge. My philosophy since starting a family has been one of take what you need and leave the rest for someone else, don't waste things, do onto others......., work your ***** off and be passionate about what you are doing, be honest and honorable, help others less fortunate, do your own thing and not worry about competing to define your own self worth, among other qualities i deemed to be what it shoud be to be a good member of society. Unfortunately, it seems that these aspirations, although realized for the most part in my case, have not been adopted by many of my fellow members and for this we are all and will be deminished as a culture. Alexis DeToqueville's observations are manifesting themselves quicker than i could have ever imagined.
i agree that there are sloths and parasites in our society, but there is no level playing field by which to judge. My philosophy since starting a family has been one of take what you need and leave the rest for someone else, don't waste things, do onto others......., work your ***** off and be passionate about what you are doing, be honest and honorable, help others less fortunate, do your own thing and not worry about competing to define your own self worth, among other qualities i deemed to be what it shoud be to be a good member of society. Unfortunately, it seems that these aspirations, although realized for the most part in my case, have not been adopted by many of my fellow members and for this we are all and will be deminished as a culture. Alexis DeToqueville's observations are manifesting themselves quicker than i could have ever imagined.
My understanding of "civilized society" is much different than yours. I do not believe in sacrificing fundemental human rights to live in your concept of an idyllic society. I am not "imposing" my viewpoint. I like the Constitution just fine. I guess you could say the founding fathers imposed their viewpoint.
I strongly believe that you are imposing your viewpoint on me. I strongly believe our rights have been documented and that the desire of others even if it is a majority cannot be allowed to subvert our basic human rights.
In 1861 our country fought a war over human rights. We did not put slavery to a referendum. After the war we inserted the 13th amenmentThe United States may be a democracy but its form is a Constitutional Republic. Our desires, perspectives, opinions, etc are filtered through representatives who take an oath not to represent us, but to SUPPORT AND DEFFEND THE CONSTITUTION of the United States.
I suggest if "Universal Health Care" is to be viewed as a right, that it be documented in the Constitution. Make this an Amendment. This is the ONLY way that those who believe this should be a right can be protected.
I don't believe it should be a right, but thankfully the Constitution is a living document and it may be ammended. Lets decide together how our society is to proceed.
03-26-2010, 01:18 PM
#749
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Way Out West
Posts: 2,547
[QUOTE=CentralCoaster;259410]So what you're saying is the constitution is written in stone and can be changed.
Ok, got it.
The sad part is, you don't even realize that I agree with you on substance, just not on approach. Arguing about whether something violates with the constitution is a tired argument. Face it, most people, including congress, don't give a rats *** about the constitution, so you'll have to step it up. Unless that is, you just enjoy preaching to the choir. Personally I'd rather engage in some healthy discussion that requires rational thought and has a chance in hell of changing someone's mind, and god-forbid, even my own.
Kicking and screaming about communists and revolutions isn't going to accomplish that.
I'll start with this;
What I believe makes a man an honorable and worthy human being is his willingness to honor his commitments and be true to his word.
Real American citizenship demands fealty to the meaning and intent of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. That's the contract, the commitment, the given word between the government and the governed.
That contract has already been violated in more ways than you can count.
I judge others' opinions, and decide how to vote with one question. Does this move us closer to the Constitutional requirements, to the intent of the Constitution as written? Or does it further debase it?
\
The 13th Amendment freed the slaves. The 14th Amendment gave them all the rights of citizens. The 19th Amendment gave women the right to vote.
What additional change to the Constitution do you imagine is needed?
And please, if you think it needs changing, have the integrity to work to get the 2/3 vote of Congress and the ratification of 3/4 of the states rather than run roughshod over finest political contract in human history.
Ok, got it.
The sad part is, you don't even realize that I agree with you on substance, just not on approach. Arguing about whether something violates with the constitution is a tired argument. Face it, most people, including congress, don't give a rats *** about the constitution, so you'll have to step it up. Unless that is, you just enjoy preaching to the choir. Personally I'd rather engage in some healthy discussion that requires rational thought and has a chance in hell of changing someone's mind, and god-forbid, even my own.
Kicking and screaming about communists and revolutions isn't going to accomplish that.
I'll start with this;
What I believe makes a man an honorable and worthy human being is his willingness to honor his commitments and be true to his word.
Real American citizenship demands fealty to the meaning and intent of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. That's the contract, the commitment, the given word between the government and the governed.
That contract has already been violated in more ways than you can count.
I judge others' opinions, and decide how to vote with one question. Does this move us closer to the Constitutional requirements, to the intent of the Constitution as written? Or does it further debase it?
\
The 13th Amendment freed the slaves. The 14th Amendment gave them all the rights of citizens. The 19th Amendment gave women the right to vote.
What additional change to the Constitution do you imagine is needed?
And please, if you think it needs changing, have the integrity to work to get the 2/3 vote of Congress and the ratification of 3/4 of the states rather than run roughshod over finest political contract in human history.
03-26-2010, 01:37 PM
#750
Senior Member
Superstock
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 344
The real question is at what point people will finally be fed up enough to do something about where the politicians have taken this country to.
I mean, honestly...the government continues to progress, become bigger, control more of our general lives through laws and taxes, and continues to grow in the money that it hands out to those less-fortunate than me.
It's kind of sad to think about, as there are a lot of people full of talk (just like me), but is anyone REALLY prepared to try to change it? Or are we all so frustrated with feeling that there is no real change options.
..and the answer isn't "go vote". I've been doing that every year since I came of age. it's not changing...at least not for the better.
signed,
Bitter motorcycle lover
I mean, honestly...the government continues to progress, become bigger, control more of our general lives through laws and taxes, and continues to grow in the money that it hands out to those less-fortunate than me.
It's kind of sad to think about, as there are a lot of people full of talk (just like me), but is anyone REALLY prepared to try to change it? Or are we all so frustrated with feeling that there is no real change options.
..and the answer isn't "go vote". I've been doing that every year since I came of age. it's not changing...at least not for the better.
signed,
Bitter motorcycle lover
